Over a fragrant samosa, kofta and garlic naan, with a cup of chai in hand, I sat down with Sunil Tyagi at Indian Star and listened as he traced an extraordinary life in food spanning more than five decades. He began his training in India in the 1970s, learning from great chefs and grinding spices by hand, before his work took him to London, Japan and eventually Melbourne, where he opened Indian Star in Moonee Ponds in 1984. Sunil spoke about discipline, instinct, generosity and the deep knowledge of spices that has shaped his cooking. Warm, forthright and gloriously expressive, he has a story for every dish and an unwavering belief that being a chef is not simply a job, but something you devote yourself to completely.
Conversation with a chef: Where did it all start?
Sunil Tyagi: That is a long story. I’ll begin it from my family, from my grandfather. My grandfather, he was a landlord in India, big landlord, you know, in the British time. He used to collect the tax, and he used to own nearly 40 villages. We were located near the Ganges River, in Uttar Pradesh. My grandfather’s empire was on the bank of the river Ganges. What happened? A flood came, very big flood, natural disaster, a landslide. It wiped out everything. Big empire gone into the river. Everything. My father, he was a magistrate, British time. And he wanted me to become a doctor. He used to do the practice of homeopathic as well, and he used to give free medication to the villagers. And I used to work for him as a compounder. “Sunil, can you please give this medicine?” Then my father had an interest that I should become a doctor. I did graduation in biology, physics, chemistry and biology. And I appeared twice in the medical field examination, and I failed it. My father’s friend, he was a director in industry. At that time, I’m talking about the seventies, my father introduced me to his friend, and he said to him, “There is a new industry coming up in India: hotel.” At that time there was no five-star hotel. Then the five-star hotels started coming. He opened the first Intercontinental Hotel. He said, “I want to put a few boys in the hotel industry.” So, he took me in the hotel, in the kitchen. I was born in a Brahmin vegetarian family family. So, in the very beginning, I had trouble seeing the meat and chicken and all poultry because we never used to have that. But I thought there’s no option. Let’s do it. And I started.
From the start, I said, if I have to make a success in this industry, I have to learn the basic things. What is the real cuisine? From the stone mill, grinding these spices and herbs, sit down on the floor and grind, and then feel everything. I learned each and everything from the very, very famous cooks at that era from Delhi. I went through with them three, four years, respected them like a guru. We used to respect our gurus like anything. I learned the basic thing, what is the meaning of coriander, the properties of cumin seed, in different dishes how it works, at a different time, how to add it, where to add it, where it will work. Each and every spice has got a lot of properties: medical properties, flavour properties and tasting properties. One spice can work differently in different dishes. Timing, what time you are going to use it, and how to use it, very important. You cannot ignore. If you ignore, you will not achieve your goal. That’s what I always instruct in the kitchen. It’s a family restaurant: me, my son, my wife, my nephew and a few other chefs.
Did you love it right from the start?
Yes. Without creating the interest in it, you can’t do it. You have to love it first. Because I was born as an artist and I always had an interest in art. To learn the basic thing: why is the food so tasty? What makes the food tasty? That’s the important thing. Everybody cooks, everybody knows salt and pepper. But something beyond that salt and pepper, you’ve got to understand.
This samosa is so tasty. How do you make it?
First of all, the secret is the pastry, how you make the pastry. We make the pastry here, proper pastry, and then the potato and peas. We dice the potato first and then steam them. Then we bring all the mise en place in the kitchen. You need coriander seeds, fennel seeds, asafetida, onion seeds, ajwain seeds. Every seed should be there in the proportions, as well as some powders, like chili flakes, coriander powder and turmeric powder. A pinch of them, it depends how big a quantity you are going to make. Then you put a little bit of oil in a big pan and temper all the spices. When the spice is correct, then you mix in the ground spices. Then shallow fry, put potato, mix it all and finish with chopped coriander and a little bit of chopped ginger. Then you do the filling.
From starting in the hotel, did you work your way up there before you came to Melbourne?
I started in 1975 learning the cuisine, as an apprentice. After finishing the apprenticeship from Oberoi Hotel groups, I served with the Maurya Sheraton Hotel. I learned with the top chef, an award-winning chef from the President of India. He was my guru as well. His name is Imtiaz Qureshi. I learned many basic things from him, how he acts, how he moves, how he feels. It’s not only learning from the guru. You have to understand the body language of your guru as well. If you don’t learn the body language, you will not learn anything. You learn the body language and then you ask the questions, privately. If he loves you, he will answer you, if he does not love you, he will not give you the answers.
What would make a guru love you or not love you?
You must work hard. Shoulder to shoulder. Respect and work. Show interest. If you don’t show your interest, nobody knows your passion. You’ve got to love to learn. If you don’t love to learn, you never learn. If you are prepared to learn, you will learn. Guru will give you the answers. If you are ignoring, bye-bye. Nobody gives you the answers.
Did you write the answers down to the questions, or did you just soak it all up?
I soaked it up. Indian cuisine is not about writing it down. It’s a feeling. It’s just like a doctor in the ancient age: they used to touch your hand, know the pulse, and diagnose. Sorry to say, in Melbourne now, Indian food is bad. There are very few Indian restaurants that are doing good Indian food.
When you first came to Melbourne in the eighties, what was the restaurant scene like?
There were only three Indian restaurants. I did not come directly here from India. First I travelled to England in 1980, and I was a chef at the Diwana Indian restaurant. They had three restaurants, and I started the chicken tikka masala there. It was my dish, which is now a famous dish in England. Basically my guru was behind it, but I gave a different shape to it.
And they didn’t have tikka masala before??
Indian food in England, in 1980 was Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi. Whoever wanted to do it, they would say it was an Indian restaurant, but there was not really classic Indian food in England, even in the whole Europe. It was more domestic Indian food. Classic Indian food came in about the nineties. When I came to Melbourne in 1984, there were only three restaurants: Phantom India in Camberwell, The Tandoor in Chapel Street, Empress of India and India House in the city. They were all run by doctors as a business. I was the first one who started my own chef owned restaurant. I began in Camberwell, in Burke Road at the Phantom of India restaurant. I was a partner there. But I did not like the partnership and then I opened a restaurant in Essendon. At the time, Essendon was just like a village and it felt very far from the city. I was criticized by my fellow Indian community: “Why did you open a restaurant in a village?” But I cracked it. In the beginning I used to have very little business, but slowly, within three years, my restaurant was up and down totally. Then I realized it was too small for my caliber. Then with my younger brothers we opened restaurants in Brighton and Port Melbourne, Amber. Slowly I shut them down. Now I concentrate on Indian Star and bringing my son into the business.
Did you have a specific region in mind for your food when you started?
I am an expert in the northern cuisine. But I have some South Indian, from Goa as well, like vindaloos. Mostly I am an expert in North Indian and Mughlai food. That is my passion. I don’t do cheap eats or street food. I don’t like street food.
Indian cuisine is not about writing it down. It’s a feeling. It’s just like a doctor in the ancient age: they used to touch your hand, know the pulse, and diagnose.
Sunil Tyagi, Indian Star
What dishes represent your style of food?
The classic chicken varieties, like butter chicken and korma chicken, and lamb as well, like Rogan Josh. Variation is your own art. You create, but you can create out of it. I am an vegetarian expert.
Are you still vegetarian?
No, I’m not. But I’m a vegetarian expert. If you command your specialty in the vegetarian, you can become a good chef.
Why is that?
Because vegetarian dishes have more variety. Meat does not have a variety. Chicken is chicken. The birds, similarly, they taste very similar. But the vegetarian has a field to play in. How many types of vegetables in the world? Then you have to understand the spices and herbs. If you understand herbs and spices, you can create thousands of dishes from vegetables.
This is a big dining room. How many does this seat?
Comfortably 80 to 100. I do a lot of catering here: 500 to 1000 people.
You have done catering for a thousand people?
I’m an expert doing outdoor caterings. I can go to the jungle and create the kitchen.
How do you do that?
You have to know how to make a stove of charcoal and wood, then you start cooking. That is the expertise: how you control the cooking, how you control the fire. Making rice in the jungle on charcoal cooking or wood cooking is an art. If you have worked with good chefs in India in the outdoors, then you can do it. Otherwise, it is very hard. Jungle means, cooking outside, farmhouse kitchens.
Everyone these days is talking about how hard it is in hospitality and lots of places are closing. What do you think?
People still have to eat. But people always have in their mind how much money is in their pocket. They can’t take a risk going to a new place which they don’t know. If people have known the place for years and years, it will not go bad. The restaurant industry is not for everybody. You can’t run a restaurant if you have only been cooking at home. You cannot have mother cooking and mother-in-law cooking and daughter-in-law cooking. No. It is a complete industry. That’s why they fail.
Was it always your intention for the restaurant to be passed on to your son?
I never thought so. Nobody knows about the future. But when I saw the interest in him, I said, “All right, come on.” Growing up in the restaurant gave him only one advantage: he knows the taste. But running the restaurant is a bit hard: how to deal with the staff, how to deal with the customer. All about hospitality. And then cooking. You know only the eating, you know only the flavour, but where does the flavour come from? What is the art behind it?
He didn’t learn from you? You sent him to William Angliss?
I taught him the basics. The theoretical knowledge. How to handle the knife. So many things you can’t teach your family. Like driving. In every family, everybody thinks, “This is my father. Why should I listen to him? Why should I bother?” It’s hard to teach the family. It’s not easy to work with family.
What is the most important thing you passed on to Shanu?
Work ethics. My kitchen closes at eleven o’clock. At eleven o’clock the kitchen will close, not before. It doesn’t matter if you don’t have a customer from ten until eleven. You have to be here . Time is very important in life. Time is very important in cooking too. What time you are adding the spice, when you are cooking, when you are sautéeing the garlic or onion, what time you are going to add the meat. If you burn it, it’s gone. It’s a different dish.
That must be hard when you are cooking at different times for different tables.
Indian food is not like that. We cook a large amount. Then you take some out to heat in the frying pan. You don’t cook one serve of Rogan Josh, you reheat it. When you are reheating, that is the important time to watch when it is ready and the flavour comes through.
For things like Rogan Josh, do they need to be made a few days before for the flavour to develop?For lamb Rogan Josh, we cook it the day before, about 40 to 50 kilos in a big pot. You can immediately serve it, but it will not give you as good a taste as it will the next day. Mature. Pickled.
You’ve got to be honest. If you can’t offer what you are advertising, don’t do it. Food is very difficult. It’s the hardest industry in the world. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea. That’s what I teach to my son: if you can’t devote yourself to it, don’t do it. It can’t be: He’s the owner of the restaurant. He runs the restaurant, but behind the restaurant, what are you doing? You should be proud; a proud chef. I believe in that. I want to die as a proud chef.
Sunil Tyagi, Indian Star
I see on your immaculate white chef jacket, a lot of awards. Is it important for you to get awards?
My award is word of mouth. The diners are the award. I don’t go and beg for the awards. The restaurant and catering associations come here every year. They think we deserve or not deserve. So that’s it.
Tell me about the doctorate in hospitality.
I was approached because of the word of mouth. Somebody popped in and said to me, “We want to nominate you for the doctorate.” I said, “Most welcome. Why not? You think I deserve it? Why not?” I was called to Sydney Parliament and they did it.
So you’re a doctor after all?
After all, the dream of my dad, is fulfilled. One way or other. I’m not the Doctor of Medicine, but of the cuisine. And I wrote a poem.
What is your poem about?
I will tell you. The poem is in my language. It is more beautiful in my language than in English. The poem is about being a chef. What is the meaning of the chef? One time, the chef had no value in society, simply a cook. Somebody taunted me one day. He was maybe an engineer or a doctor, and he said to me: “What are you? Simply a chef. You can’t stand in front of me.” He insulted me and then I responded to him as a chef. Look who I am, what I have done for society. That is the meaning of the chef.
I will read the poem to you: “I am the chef. I am not a joke. I am the one who created the salt and sugar. I am the one who created the fire. I am the heat of the burning stove. I am not the ash. I am the one who makes the balls out of the ashes, dust and dry grass, and lights them again, makes it fire again. The fire which is shut down, I have the ability to convert the dust and ash again into the fire. When it was the ancient age, I was the one who invented the fire. You used to drink water in the canals and ponds and rivers, and you used to eat the raw vegetable and fruit and meat. I’m the one who made you the human being. Because of me, you have become civilised. Because of me, you are a strong man, you are a wise man. I gave strength to great people. A chef could be a mother or the grandmother. Because of the good food, you are aware, you used to walk, and nowadays you are talking about going to the moon. Because of me. I am the one who makes people intellectual. Healthy food, good food. East, north, west, south, nothing moves without me. Whether it is a holy festival, Eid festival, Christmas festival or wedding festival, nothing happens without me. So don’t insult me. I am not less than anyone else. This whole universe is running because of food, and who creates the good food? The good chefs all around the world. That is the chef.
I love that. Thank you.
I have diners from 50 years, regulars, and I give them a surprise always. At the same time, I teach:how you can cook the eggplant, which way you want to cook the eggplant, how you can serve the eggplant with the other dish, how you can cook the eggplant with the meat or chicken, what cut you use. It’s not that you chop the eggplant …no. Think about it. Plating as well, you should keep in your mind. People should want to take a picture first because it looks so good. Our Google reviews have a lot of pictures. So, what do you think of me?
I feel very honoured to meet you and hear your story.
When I came to Australia, I came as a chef from Japan. I was sponsored by the Tandoor Indian restaurant in Chapel Street. Someone had heard of me. That restaurant was number one Indian Restaurant hen. We won The Age best restaurant award then. All the cricketers and celebrities came.Then slowly I had the opportunity to go in a partnership in Camberwell. I did not like the attitude of my partners, so I moved. I found a restaurant in Essendon and opened a restaurant. In the beginning, a bit hard. My wife was working with the Metropolitan Tram. She was a bank manager in India back home and she worked in the Department of Housing and Construction as a clerk. Then slowly the restaurant started getting busier. I said, “Don’t worry. You leave the job. Come with me. Help me. I’ll teach you the cooking and everything.” She was a vegetarian Hindu girl, very spiritual girl. Then I started teaching her how to peel the chicken. I said, “You’ve got to learn. You have to.” The religion is the work. I learned from the Japanese: work is worship. Then I taught her. Me and my wife, both in the kitchen. Shanu used to sleep on the crate in the kitchen. I put the blanket there. He was three years old.
Did your wife enjoy it?
She did. We worked shoulder to shoulder. We were very honest to the customers. We used to give one dish charged, one free. One charged, one free. We wanted to bring the people in. People knew the honesty and it started to grow. Another thing is, you’ve got to be honest. If you’re not honest, don’t do it. Honesty always works.
I think you were right at the beginning, someone should make a film about you. Who would direct it?
I will be the director. I will be the story writer. Because it’s not only the cooking, it is how I travelled overseas. One place to another place. You’ve got to be very brave. I saw how people treat the labour overseas. There’s a lot of stories: what I saw, what I felt, what I have gone through. Many things in the picture. If you want to know more about me, if you want to make a film, then there is a story behind it. It’s not only running the restaurant.
When you go through a lot of hard work and hardship, then your conscience wakes up and you know how people suffer. So, when students come here to work, I’m very gentle with them. I look after them with food, money, if they need fees, how the students are working, the living conditions, the working conditions. I am always for them. “Please, if you are in trouble, let me know. I’ll help you.” I’ve done enough in my life. Life is very short. Do something good for people. So that’s what it is. I do the good for the people. It’s not only about making money. Making money time is gone. This is not the era where you can make money out of restaurants. But still, you’ve got to continue it. Things are not cheap. That’s why restaurants are closing. People don’t know how expensive the food is now in the market, how expensive the outgoings are, the rent, the electricity, the gas and everything. At the same time, you can’t put the prices up in the food. If you put the prices up, people haven’t got the money to spend on your food.
At least give people a guarantee that they will get good food, value for money. You’ve got to be honest. If you can’t offer what you are advertising, don’t do it. Food is very difficult. It’s the hardest industry in the world. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea. That’s what I teach to my son: if you can’t devote yourself to it, don’t do it. It can’t be: He’s the owner of the restaurant. He runs the restaurant, but behind the restaurant, what are you doing? You should be proud; a proud chef. I believe in that. I want to die as a proud chef.
Indian Star, 254-56 Maribyrnong Road, Monnee Ponds