Brigitte Hafner

Brigitte Hafner: Hi Jo, nice to meet you. Thanks very much for taking the time. It's a good time now. Deep in the throes of getting ready for Tasting Australia, and I'm sitting by the fire and looking out and just working out all sorts of creative things.

Conversation with a chef: But it's a perfect day for a fire, I have to say. That temperature suddenly dropped.

One thing that I really look forward to at the end of autumn is just getting that fire on and getting ready for winter. It does get pretty cold down here.

It does. I was just doing some reading about you recently and I loved reading about how it was your dream to set up Tedesca and to have that opportunity to grow and then cook all in the same place. It sounds really idyllic.

It is. It is something that I feel I feel very fortunate to have even pulled off. But it was something that I thought about for a really long time. I think when you dwell on things a long time, it's just very rewarding when they actually do come off. It certainly wasn't easy. But I look at it now and I can't wait to get to work every day. I call it work, but it's not really, its a dream job. And it does have all these elements that are terribly interesting to me: obviously, the cooking, the garden, the growing, being in the country, and the art and these conversations and nature. They are all very rewarding for me. It's very fortunate.

Absolutely. And you really are right in the middle of seasonality. You're really seeing it happen all around you. That must be beautiful as well.

It is. I was describing my garden to someone. My father used to be a landscape gardener, so I've always loved ornamental gardens, something that I took a lot of time with when we moved down here to create a beautiful garden around the house. There are those green gardens that are perpetually green with beautiful evergreen trees. I just have the opposite where and I just love that season reminder of where you are. When spring comes, everything goes from nothing to all of a sudden punches out with that growth and then summer and the height of summer and all the flowers that you get and then autumn. All those changes. And I think very much with cooking, it's the same thing.

Of course, we enjoy those changes and we move along with it. But for us, it's really informs everything we do in a really strong way. It's not something that we look at. It's something that we are riding on. It's our map. The garden very much drives what we're doing and how we are working. It's been a very interesting change. I have always been influenced by the seasons. I used to write pieces for Epicure about the start of asparagus coming into spring and all of that. But it's very different, I think, when you don't have the choice. Back in the city, I suppose you could just call make an order and the produce comes in and you sort of know when things are in season. But in Australia, you can pretty much get anything you want from around the country, so it's a bit more blurred. Also it's more of a decision that you can make. But down here, its the other way around. It tells you you've got two rows of chilies and capsicums to use up, and you have to use them. And that's how it is. That's something that when I moved down here, I was always sort of drawn to this idea that you grow things and you cook them and all the jelly. I used to make all the jellies, quince jellies and all that. The only thing that was missing was a family of five children to give it all to.

Yes. Well, I know one of my very first conversations with a chef a few years ago now was with Annie Smithers. She talked about the respect that you have for seeing a vegetable through from a seedling through to being on the plate and that you're less likely to waste it or take it for granted.

100 per cent. I have enormous respect for Annie and what she does. And she's absolutely right. She knows that best because she's taken that time to grow things. I relate. When I started here, I went to the extreme of growing everything by seed because I didn't want to just take the little seedling from onions, I wanted to go all the way back to deciding what exactly seed I want to grow. Of course, that was just met with complete failure most of the time because it just takes one day where the sprinkler system doesnt work, and there's 6 weeks or 3 months lost. And it's the same with fruit. You can nurture a tree all the way to fruit in the tree and then you get rot. Thats what happened this year. You can just go to a supermarket and just buy a bag of apricots, and it's so easy. But it's actually not. If you are growing something, you realise that it's actually not that easy. So we do really respect what we grow. I think I got a handful of apricots off this tree, and each one of them, I didn't know what to do with it. They were so revered. And then in some years, you just get this absolute windfall, and it seems so easy. It's a very interesting exercise, and it's very nice to be reminded of that connection.

It's the same with the animals. You know, we have sheep on our property, and that's something that we didn't really know much about when we first started here. It really has shaped the way I work with meat in the restaurant and also how much I eat. When you bring up your own lambs and some of them don't survive, they're pretty hard stories, so they've been good to learn.

Where did it all start for you? Did you always know that you wanted to be a chef?

It's interesting. Look. No, I didn't always know I wanted to be a chef. I came from a kitchen of very good cooks. Mum, my sister, my father, very good. They were also very good at hospitality. They were great entertainers. We had lots of dinner parties and parties with great food. My mother was really exceptional at cooking. She did teach me very early on. She took on a floristry business. And so at the age of 13, she trusted me and I had to learn how to cook for the family, so by the time she came home, half of it would be ready. She would teach me these things and I was naturally good at it. I was encouraged to do all things other than what I wanted to do, which was art because that's really what I was very good at at school. I really wanted to be an artist, but I don't suppose that was a very clever career choice. I fell into hospitality as a lot of people do and I do remember being very good at it and being natural at it. I started in front of house, which I don't think I was very good at and still aren't. But then I was offered a job as an apprentice with Neil Perry and I remember that first day working with Kylie Kwong. I just thought, oh my god. This is it. This is absolutely it. It was like the sky just opened up for me. I didn't really feel like I had been particularly good at anything up until point. I was 23. But that day I was in the kitchen, I definitely knew. Once I got there, it was very clear.

What was it do you think that really captured you?

Well, gosh. There's so many things that I love about being in the kitchen. And back then, I think it was just this feeling of something being just so completely right. I just felt so naturally at ease. I just felt like this is a place I know and understand, and I am good at this. That's I think that's what it was. Of course, along the way, there's lots of things that I that I grew to love as well. But that I remember that was the moment where I just felt that.

It feels like the industry is changing rapidly, as we speak, but what are some big changes that you noticed between then and now?

You know, that's an interesting question. Of course, the industry is always changing. I'm not sure it's changed enough, to be perfectly honest. I would probably reflect more on what we have done in response to the industry, ourselves. Of course, I worked for all the chefs that yelled and screamed and those burnout hours where I could barely hold the steering wheel, my arms were so tired, and my hands were full of cuts and burns and just the abuse that your body can go through and those hellish working hours and the pressure and all of that. Jamie, my business partner and I, we would often talk about what is it that gets people, they're so driven, and they just put all of themselves into their work in the industry, and they just get the big burn out. It's just such a common thing. I really understand what there is to love about it: the energy from it, the dealing with the people, the creative side of it, the fact that it's just like theatre every day. Unscripted in just something that you can influence or just manipulate, but notentirely know what's going to happen. It's part Fawlty Tours, its part ballet. Nothing else is like it. It's exhilarating. I think chef's skills have equally be as good as in emergency. The response that you need is just so quick to decide on things, and your hands are working faster than your brain.

It's just quite extraordinary the things that you do as a chef in in restaurants. Then we would say, well, how do we do this so that we can do it forever and do it and still love it? Jamie and I started talking about doing it differently. And so what we created at Tedesca is something that we did as response to change all those things that we think did very well in the industry. You know, those hours, and we created a restaurant where we do four lunches. We have one team, so that most of them are all full timers. We also created a restaurant or business where we were in it all the time. And we did that specifically so that we could be in it and be drive the culture and just make sure everything goes really well and look after all the teams. I think that that's something that some businesses set themselves up just as a business. And I think it's very hard, there's humans in this business, and all people need help. They don't function like robots. Being in it all the time, we can really care for everyone and make sure that if they need anything, they get what they need tended to. Also this one team idea that we had worked really well because everyone starts to relate together. It's like a football team. They're all very cohesive, connected, one unit. They're all going to the one thing together. And so energetic that it really works, and they all get a very nice break and very refreshed, and then they're all sort of traveling together in this one project. And of course they don't have the nights. They don't have those back to back shifts, and I think it's a lot more sustainable. We've done that as our response, I suppose, to what the industry's probably failing in, the difficult areas around the industry.

Absolutely. My next question was going to be leaning into the young chefs a bit more, about the challenges facing them and your advice to young chefs starting out on this pathway? Is it still a challenge to maintain a work life balance in the city and some of these restaurants?

I think work life balance is the challenge for everyone, isn't it? We're somewhere really, really good. It's often very demanding, and that does come with the territory pretty much anywhere. But I think particularly chefs still do have to work those long hours and the back to backs. I think that there's probably some good things happening that are different to they used to be. I don't think people get yelled at as much anymore, which I think is very good because that's just so unhelpful. But I think that young people just need to look after themselves more and probably not choose to work in places that are not good places. They need to know that it's a long game and that its a marathon and they can burn out quickly. It's very easy to fall into a love and a passion for the job and it's a fairly classic ten year mark where if you work those incredibly over long hours, but you do tend to burn out. Then you probably need to think about how can we do it differently. I don't know what the solution is. I think it will just come about. People will start changing the way they employ people. That maybe that's what will come about.

Yes. Well, thinking of the bright young future of cooking, you're a judge on the jury for the Pacific Regional Final of the San Pellegrino Young Chef Academy, which is a big thing to be tasked with. How did how did that come about?

I'm really excited about that, and I have not been asked before. I'm really excited to be seeing the young talent that's coming through. Being down on the peninsula, you dont see as much of the young talent as you do in the city. There are a lot of young people that work with me, and I just love seeing talent when people are young. They've just got such fresh ideas. It's very, very important for the industry that new people come along and that they're really supported. They do need a lot of support. Gosh, I've been around for a long time, and worked with some great people both younger than me and older than me. Talent ought to be noticed and supported. So I'm very much looking forward to the competition. How did it come about? Well, I don't know. I was asked and I'm glad to be involved.

Absolutely. You've got a great jury. How does it work on the day? Are all five of you there at once? Do you confer?

Jo, I can't tell you that. They have not told us. There will be a series of introductions to the process. But that's not something that they've led us through yet.

It's chefs under 30, but I think they need to be over 18, do they?

I think that's fair. At 18, you really haven't seen very much yet. Over 30, it's a shame that that's a cut-off in a sense, but you've got to start somewhere. Between 20 and 30 is really where you cut your teeth. And where they have worked will define at that stage where they're at. It will be interesting to note where they've worked, whether it's been international or Michelin Star or in Australia, not that any of that will determine anything. I'll be very open to who what they present and definitely confer with the other chefs because I respect them as well.

They bring a signature dish, and they're marked on these 3 different areas: technical skills, creativity, and personal belief, which I find a really interesting one. They need to be able to have a really clear message about the creation of the dish. They are three really interesting areas to look at. Technical skills seems like you'd be able to look at how they've chosen the material and how they process it, I guess. And then creativity, I don't know where you really start with that.

What will they come up with? Particularly if they have an absolute blank canvas. I think that is an interesting thing. Where do you start? Is it a building block founded on something else that you've injected your own spin on it. There's so many things when you think about what makes a dish work, what makes it when you put that fork into it, put it in your mouth, beyond texture and delicious flavours and all that that you're going through. What does it all mean? Where does it come from? What's the idea behind it? And they're all very subtle things, but, I'll be very interested to see what they come up and what the parameters are around it? Gosh, if someone was asking me to invent something from scratch, where do you start? We're in Australia, there are so many influences here. It's not like we're deep in the traditions of other countries where they just probably have the same things over and over again, but just that complete inventiveness is very particular to Australia and the newer countries. I think it's going to be really interesting.

Absolutely. It feels like perhaps for a competition, you'd have to have a different approach to creating a menu, for example. One of the things I was going to ask you, but you really did answer that, was where do you get your inspiration? And I guess you get it from your garden and from what's available, and then you work from there. But in a competition, where would they start?

It's really interesting. So where do you get your ideas from? Yes, the garden's very influential for me, but I also get ideas from all over. I'm influenced by so many things.

By art, by nature, and some of my experiences, things that I've eaten. I'm influenced by tradition. I'm often drawn back to traditions, and that's just me. I don't know for someone else where they will get their inspiration, particularly a very young person. How much have they eaten out, have they travelled and all of that? Somehow that will speak in what they've presented. It's a bit like when you speak to someone you've never met them before, and instantly, you can gauge whether they're very worldly, they've travelled, or whether they have just come from one place, for instance. I think food really does say so much.

Well, it sounds like it's going to be a really fascinating process, and I love the way you've spoken about it. Thank you. I've really been wanting to talk to you for such a long time, so I'm really glad that I got the opportunity today.

Thanks, Jo. It was really nice to catch up again, and I'm very, very excited about this and just to see what young talent is out there and Im really going to be very interested in how other creatives do things. Good on them for putting it out there.

Tedesca Osteria, 1175 Mornington-Flinders Road, Red Hill