Larry Xie is here for a good time and that's what he wants for guests to Bansho as well. He is the epitome of hospitality and is constantly seeking ways to learn more about food and wine and to welcome his guests with warmth and conviviality. No stranger to hospitality, Larry grew up with a family who ran coffee shops and motels in Melbourne and, as a teenager, he worked for his parents, before moving to the States for University. After a brief stint studying finance, Larry decided it wasn't for him and felt drawn to architecture and the arts and worked for a while as an art curator. He met his wife, Mira Wu and they decided to move back to Australia and opened two restaurants in Adelaide before coming to Melbourne to open Bansho in Armadale. Larry describes Bansho as an elevated neighbourhood bistro, combining Japanese ingredients with French technique. If you're not quite sure what that means, you just have to go and try for yourself, but highlights from my meal were the Chawanmushi (steamed egg custard) with spanner crab, celeriac vichyssoise and avruga caviar and the poisson du Jour with arare and katsuo bushi beurre blanc. I had the best time talking to Larry and I felt as though I had made a new friend. We really could have talked for hours.
Conversation with a chef: Hi, Larry. How are you? It's nice to be here again. I feel like there's lots to talk about because I hadn't realised that you trained as an architect and now everything totally makes sense that you have such a beautiful fit out.
Larry Xie: That's mostly my wife's job. She picked out all the small details, but she worked with our architect together because she doesn't have a licence here in Australia. She used to work in the US and she's more well versed in this area than I am, because I ended up working as a curator in the art gallery. I was talking to clients. That's why you see me mostly at the front, I'm more a people person. The materials, the tables, the stones, tiles, the paint, everything is picked by her. There's a little funny story about the paint. We were not too happy with whatever they had and it was near the end of construction, and they were painting everything. We had four hours to figure out a new solution. We went down to Porters Paints down the street, and they made this colour for us. It used to be a satin silver, darker colour. We wanted gold because it looks better without lighting. Then the small details are hand finished with Egyptian cotton; so spray touch, spray again, touch again, and spray. That's it.
That's very arty. I read another publication who described the restaurant as Art Deco.
I'd say Art Deco and the Gilded Age, because we chose brass and more of subdued texture because I like Art Deco and the Gilded Age is a little bit flashy, but I feel with our dining environment, it's a little bit better to have something more toned down and so people can feel relaxed coming in. So you see matte finishes, even with the paint, we try not to go overboard too much. And then especially with the colour, the tiles, it fits in with our overall colour scheme. When you're walk in, it doesn't hurt your eyes.
It's so beautiful. So did you put in all these curves and arches?
Yes. And then the wallpaper. Overall we feel like too many sharp edges or angles corners feel a bit aggressive. People feel it naturally, and if it's too sharp, it gives them an unpleasant feeling. And then you can see from our table as well, the edges are all rounded off. We chose this finish because we like people leaving marks on the table. So with more people coming in the table is going to wear and tear naturally. And then we can just restore it a little bit, but leave the texture on there.
Like a history of the people that have passed through?
Yes. We have customers who say, I want that table all the time. Do you want me to put your name on a plaque? But people appreciate these small things, which is important because at the end of the day, you'll be having a meal and any diners will look around and then anything that you didn't think about would just stick out. Even for people who don't have design or architectural backgrounds, it's human nature to look for things that are odd in a sense. We were taught to think a lot. Even if you think it's too much. My professor said, Larry, I know I tell you to not overthink, but sometimes you need to think a lot because these people are going to come in, they're going to expect things from you. They're very friendly people, but at the end of the day, they're all customers. So you need to treat them with whatever you have the best at that moment. And that requires a lot of thinking beforehand to make sure, if I need this at that moment, I have it. It's all preparation things.
That's right. You don't want the public or the diners coming in and for there to be questions in their head about, how does this work? Or where do I sit? I feel like you have to go that extra mile just so that when they come in, it's just all there and it just feels right. It makes sense. But this isn't your first restaurant, is it?
We had two in Adelaide, called Mugen House. It was pure Japanese food. It wasn't as up market as this one. It was more family style. We were doing, I think 180 to 220 a night on the busy days. I think we could fit 100 people at a time. And we did two sittings. Especially on Friday, Saturday, Sundays. It was a very fast-paced environment. I was washing dishes. I had a front of house manager and I had enough staff, and I needed to know the kitchen as well. So I started learning by washing dishes.We had two; one in Glen Elg near the beach, one in the CBD. Firstly, we let the one near the beach go, because it was taking too much effort to run two shops. We had the plan to open something similar to this in Adelaide, but it didn't work out in the end. We came back to Melbourne, took a break, went back to China and then we came back and it was a family idea to try to do something different. It's a good place for us to use our experience a little bit more, especially in hospitality and design as well.
I haven't been to Adelaide. I'm originally from New Zealand, but – and thats no excuse because I've lived here for maybe 12 years now, so I could have been to Adelaide – but I haven't been yet. It's a real foodie place, isn't it? Different to Melbourne. From what I can read, maybe more wineries and they're very into the produce from the area.
You and I work in the same industry, although different sides. But you'll understand when I say, I think Adelaide's market is a little bit different because I would say it's a little bit behind the Melbourne dining scene, because Melbourne has been here so long and there is so much competition. We wanted to become a market leader, in a sense. So it would make our job easier in Adelaide. We had the idea all settled down, but it just didn't work out. I think with the growth in population, that culture is going to be there, because I know have two friends who have already opened up what I wanted to do and they're doing great. People like to say, oh, there's not enough people, people are not going out. But people want to go out obviously, who doesn't want to have a good time?
I thought, these two genres of cooking, I just feel like it fits well with each other. Japanese food is more about representing the original taste of your recipe and your ingredients. The better your ingredient is, the tastier it is going to be. Because all the cooking methods take second stage. It is more about presenting what you have. I think with French food, seasonal stuff is important, but there are also a lot of techniques involved, a lot of preparation, a lot of sauces and cooking methods. ~ Larrie Xie, Bansho
You're from China, but did you come here to school?
I grew up here. I came here when I was in primary school. It was an experience for me. It was 2007. We didn't have Google maps and stuff.
Oh, that's hard to believe.
The vivid memory I had is that I had a big Melways book of maps. My parents and I landed in Waverley first because one of our friends was there. And then from there we were on our own, trying to figure out everything. It was good that I got to experience the middle school through high school period in Melbourne. I learned to appreciate more of the city. I went to Melbourne Uni for three months then I transferred to the US to do architecture.
Where was that?
I was in Cleveland first. I started in finance. I was getting really depressed, so I told my parents that I needed to change what I wanted to do. I applied for art schools because I wanted to do architecture. I got accepted by SBA in New York, and also the Art Institute in Chicago. I wanted to go to Chicago because I had the romantic idea about the city. So that's how I ended up in Chicago.
And so where does hospitality fit in?
I would say it's more family influence. Because my parents had coffee shops and motels. Theyve been doing this for some time. I was working for them when I was in high school. I didn't mind it too much. Some people don't like waking up at six o'clock in the morning. I didn't mind it. I thought it was fun. I enjoyed the people and the fast-paced environment. It was something that never went away. I always just thought it was good to combine what I did before and then also what I learned in school. It's a very well connected industry because it's not just food, it's a lot of things.
I wouldn't say that my architectural or design or curator experience went to waste. It happens in conversations, it happens in people appreciating your choices for wines and in hospitality as well. Youre constantly trying to be a better person because you are always learning new things. Right now, I'm mainly focused on learning about wine. I'm thinking about doing Level 3 in the WCT. It is just fascinating. There are so many things just under the surface. People see only a fraction of it. But your knowledge base makes your fraction just that much better.
The French Japanese concept; Japanese food with French techniques. How did you come to that?
We've known our executive chef for a long time. French influence mostly comes from me and my wife's personal experience. We tried so many restaurants in the US and travelled a lot. We specially liked what we had in Chicago and New York, even some southern states like New Orleans where all these fusion influences had a very strong impact on us. Then I thought, these two genres of cooking, I just feel like it fits well with each other. Japanese food is more about representing the original taste of your recipe and your ingredients. The better your ingredient is, the tastier it is going to be. Because all the cooking methods take second stage. It is more about presenting what you have. I think with French food, seasonal stuff is important, but there are also a lot of techniques involved, a lot of preparation, a lot of sauces and cooking methods. We had a talk with our chef and then we just thought, it doesn't hurt to try because it is just something we've seen some people do really well. We were also inspired by some of the Melbourne restaurants. It is something we want to do, but not to that level yet. I'm not a chef owner, so I can only rely on my team to build what I want to have. So I want to keep it more of a neighbourhood bistro vibe. You can come here and always have good food choices and always have solid wine choices. And that's it. I don't want to promote that we are hat level. It's not something we are actively looking for. But you know, I'd be more than happy to get one, obviously.
Sure. Then there's pressure to maintain your hat. I've been reading some interesting discussions lately about the Michelin stars and why we don't have them here. What we ate here was so delicious. All the flavours. And my favourite thing was the Chawanmushi. It was just so cosy and savoury and like, all the flavours just made me feel like I was doing something really good for my body as well. I loved it. But it was all really great. We were very well treated. Was that the first menu or you've changed it since you opened?
We've changed it a little bit because we opened in September.
Do you sit down with your executive chef and discuss ideas?
I sit down with our executive chef, and our sous chef and our associate chef and me and Mira. So five people together. We set what we want to do for the next season basically. And then we try to introduce them in stages. We run more seasonal food as a special first, and then we see the feedback. Then if it has a solid footing, then we put it on the menu. We then try to take off something that's not in season anymore. Like, we used to have a Jerusalem artichoke. It was really nice with vichyssoise. It was earthy and foresty. It was nice and crunchy. Especially with artichoke as well, it's very hard to keep offering that same standard when it's not in season. So we try to rotate things. At the same time, we try to think about how much percentage we stay with Japanese, and how much French? There's a line there.
Whats your ideal?
My ideal is I would say 40% Japanese and 60% French. Because in a sense, Japanese ingredients are very characteristic in themselves. You don't really need to treat them too much. Obviously, you are very careful with the preparation, but you don't really need to do so much. We talk to our fish suppliers and then they go out fishing. So they let us know like, okay, this is fresh today, do you guys want it? So we can get special things for our diners, like monk fish and sometimes even we get puffer fish, or abalone. You rarely see them on people's menus.
But would that be more for sushi and sashimi? Or are you saying that you're using it more for French?
We try to combine both. We also had a special where it's just a rabbit terrine and then we served that with our own baked little crispy crotons and our own pickled Japanese vegetables. But in my sense, the ingredient side is more Japanese and then the cooking method side, the sauce and so on is 60% French.
Do you look through cookbooks or on Instagram, YouTube, those kinds of things for the people who are doing those kinds of things? Or French technique, for example?
A lot. Because I'm not a chef. So I need to really catch up. I know my wines, that's fine. Because I started really early on, but with dishes, it's hard to communicate with your chefs if you don't know what you're doing. There's a balance of flavours or there's like, or you need to have a twist at the end to make people feel special. A dish is not just scallops, of course scallops are nice, but it would be nicer to be able to ask the owners to understand what they're doing in the kitchen. And recipes on Instagram, YouTube and also I watch a lot of documentaries on Netflix and just try and absorb a lot of things. And then we do trials with our chefs to see if it is something we can do or not do. We would love to offer truffle service at the table, or caviar service at the table. We can maybe do that for special occasions, but on a day-to-day basis, I think it's more important to focus on the consistency of the dishes you're serving. You can't have one table getting really good steak and the next one not. I think consistency is more important than expensive ingredients and people appreciate it.
It’s simple. I always tell my staff, it is important to think about when you go out to eat what sort of good time you want to have. And then you create that for a customer here. That’s the basic things. There’s lots of details obviously, but the fundamental thing is, are you thinking from their perspective? If people come here for different occasions, or casual meals or they want to sit down and watch the chefs work, we can offer all of that. But it’s important to be in their shoes and understand what they are looking for. They spend a short amount of time with you, you need to be able to create that experience for them. ~ Larry Xie, Bansho
When people come into Bansho, what's the experience you want them to have? Should they be working their way through the menu? What's the ideal?
It's a very personal thing. I think the venue itself is an extension of the owners. It is very much a representation of who you are. So I didn't do set menus, because I don't like set menus. I want to choose, I want to understand the dishes at other restaurants as well.I want to choose what I want to have. I want to be able to have that freedom. So I tell my customers, it's a very simple menu. You can do courses, but everything is designed to be shared. Everything can be shared and you can do different portions or sizes or pieces. It's fine. You can ask me questions. I am happy to talk to you about the menu, but I want to leave that ultimate deciding right to our customers. If they dont know what Chawanmushi is, and I get a lot of people who don't know what it is. They see the spanner crab, they see the egg custard and they say oh, I don't want to have hot savoury eggs. But I tell them, it doesn't hurt to try. It's a new experience, and if we have the confidence to put it on the menu, it won't be a bad surprise.I want my customers to understand this is not a very serious fine dining restaurant. A more accurate description would be a bit more premium neighbourhood bistro with very good food and wine choices. I deliberately keep my wine list very simple. I only have Victorian and French wines and I am going to do like a special little list of my own cellar later on just from the wines from other countries. But mostly, you go into a restaurant, and the wine list is 20 pages long. You flip through and there's so many areas, so many choices. I study wine. I have fun looking at it. But imagine the average customer, they don't want to look at too many choices. They know what they like and they're happy to listen to your advice. But at the end of the day, a solid choice is better than them overpaying for something that they don't really know what they're getting. If you feel like an adventure, you can talk to me. I always encourage my customers to try different grapes. It's a nice surprise for like both sides.
How do you keep all those flavours in your head? With the wines, for example, if you come across something you really like, do you keep notebooks? Or is it in your phone?
I use an app. Every bottle I taste, I take a picture of the label. And then, because we were learning about wine systematically, I try to use the tasting notes as a guidance basically. When diners ask, oh, Larry, what wine should I have tonight? I always ask them, what do you usually have and what's your favourite wine choice. Then I can go from their point of view and combine with my experience. I say, this is something new, but it's going to be a very good experience for you. I use a lot like wine searches, Vivino, and I use My Cellar to keep track of the stuff all you had. We have like really detailed Excel sheets with alcohol percentage tasting notes, vintage, and then where we had it, when we had it. It's a very big file.
Sounds like a fun file. How important is matching the wine to the food?
I would say it is important, but the more I feel like the more I do or the more people I talk to or the more wines I drink, the pairing is not as important as what I believed before. Because you have to think about the dining experience as a whole. I always remember the fun things first, the experience of being with my friends. Then the wine and then the food. I think it's a very holistic experience. It's a whole package. Of course I would recommend certain wines with certain dishes. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. We have tempura here and I'm really proud of the tempura. Everything's freshly made. It's deep fried, it's hot. And you have different sauces. Basically you can go with any alcohol of your choice, but I recommend champagnes to break it up a little bit or white wines; really mineraly stuff to cut through everything.
I think what's most important is, at the end of the day, if they're happy with the package, then wine pairings or specific food pairings take a back backseat to the experience itself. No disrespect to the venues who do it. It's great when I go to a more fine dining setting, I can appreciate it a lot more, but it's just not something I want to do here. Because it's going to be, you're going to have this with that and have that with that. And people are like, Larry, stop talking to me. Let me have a good time. I want to offer that freedom.
It's not like we're not serious about wine choices. We do auctions and we try to find really good producers and then really highlight the Victorian winemakers. But it's there if you want to have it.
I'm beginning to see you're all about the good time.
It's the bottom line. Im an intuitive person. I think the years of learning about the arts and stuff let me discover who I am. It has an impact on what I appreciate. I'm young now. But I was running two restaurants when I was 24, 25. It offers me a whole new perspective on people's interactions and what people like about you and what people like about your restaurant and then the sort of connections they have with you as an owner. You know, every time you see them coming in and you remember their faces, you remember their names, you remember their preferences. It's just something nice to have in any dining setting. You feel welcome.
Well, it seems like you enjoy being here. I think it's nice for people to come into a restaurant where people want to be there.
At the end of the day, like we said before, it's an extension of who you are. If you don't like being here, people can tell. People feel it. As soon as they walk in, they feel it. They see you sitting or standing behind the counter, no smile on your face and you're like looking tired; they're not going to have a good time. So if you're not having a good time in the restaurant yourself, that means your patrons are not going to enjoy their time here.It's simple. I always tell my staff, it is important to think about when you go out to eat what sort of good time you want to have. And then you create that for a customer here. That's the basic things. There's lots of details obviously, but the fundamental thing is, are you thinking from their perspective? If people come here for different occasions, or casual meals or they want to sit down and watch the chefs work, we can offer all of that. But it's important to be in their shoes and understand what they are looking for. They spend a short amount of time with you, you need to be able to create that experience for them.
I would say, in nature, I'm a little bit of a crowd pleaser. That is also something my wife tells me a lot. Sometimes I don't listen too well. I don't follow the rules too well. I'm very organic, but it's important to have rules at the same time. I really appreciate her presence in this restaurant because she keeps me grounded. Otherwise I'll be in the sky just having fun with guests and forgetting about what I was supposed to do. For me, it's a very, very fun experience. And I think people have the right to experience that every time they go to any venue. You go there to have a good time.
Well, it's hospitality, isn't it? You do expect that people are going to be hospitable.
That is true. It is hospitality.
At the end of the day. I mean, the onus is on the public to also be polite and respectful, and appreciative. But it's hospitality.
That is true. I never thought about what hospitality actually is. I learned through the process. I dont have 20 years of experience in the industry. But with younger generations as well, I think we do absorb things and learn things much faster and then we change a lot quicker. Every day has micro changes for us. We are learning that we shouldn't do this, or we shouldn't do that. Then we're doing something good and keeping it going. But yes, at the end of the day, it is about being hospitable.
Bansho Dining, 960 High Street, Armadale