Matthew Butcher

Hi Matthew. How are you? Thanks for your time. Now, you're between Sydney and Melbourne, you grew up in Echuca, and I know that New York has a really special place in your heart. Where do you think you call home?

Well, Melbourne's my home. But it's funny that I love America. I'm very family driven, and I come from a very, very tight family, hence why I'm still in Melbourne. But where I feel most comfortable is the US. When I get there, I feel at ease. I feel very much at home. I feel grounded. So I actually really enjoy my travels there. I'm very fortunate enough that I get the chance to travel there for work quite often, which I really embrace. And last year I got to experience it for about eight months in New York, which was unbelievable. It's funny. So, between Melbourne and America, I feel at ease. I'm very lucky that I get to call two places home.

That is lucky. I saw on one of your Instagram posts, someone had commented that it was like a childhood dream for you doing what you were doing in the States. Where did that come from, that love of the States?

I grew up with two older sisters. So I watched a lot of TV; a lot of drama shows, like Beverly Hills, Melrose Place, back in the day. I just think a lot of that food scene in those shows, diners, burgers, pizza. I just fell in love with it. And then I guess growing up with my parents in a takeaway food shop, my dad was famous for making pizzas, my mum's work ethic and having great burgers on the menu, that's how I learned my love of food. I guess that's the staples of the US. So I think that's where I feel the love for it, and I guess why I love being there. It's funny, I chat to a friend who lives in the US who's an actor, and he hates the food there, but he knows how much I love it. We have a debate about it all the time, whether it's a hot dog or a burger or a pizza. Last year I spent most of the year going around testing pizzas.

That is so interesting that you're drawn to those burger pizza diner kinds of things, because, according to what I've read, your big epiphany about food and wanting to be a chef was when you were 18 in Carlton eating that confit duck. That's not a burger.

Very much not a burger.

Can you describe what was happening for you when you thought, actually, this is what I want to do now?

I think we all evolve in time. Growing up with burgers and pizza, I think that's one part of being a chef and that side of food. That life changing experience was at Vue de Monde in Carlton. I was actually at university and I had a twice cooked duck leg with pomme mousseline and red wine sauce. I still remember it was one of the best things I've ever eaten. I think it was that I fell more in love with who was doing that. I looked at Shannon Bennett back then, his long hair. I thought, I want to be like that. What I ate was amazing, and the person that was creating it and cooking it was even better. My dad was very big on the idea that you surround yourself with the best if you want to do well in life. I guess that's how it all started for me from there. Essentially I went from burgers and pizza to French cooking. That's sort of how it all started for me.

And is it true that you were Vue de Monde and you sent a note to Shannon to ask to work for him?

Correct. After that time in Vue de Monde in Carlton, I went back to where my parents reside in Echuca, and worked at a pub up there. I did my first two years of an apprenticeship there, where I did a lot of developing. I learned under a couple of great chefs there, learned about being around people. I was big into sports, so I was always around a team, if that makes sense. Two years in, Shannon brought out his first book, My Vue it was called. I started cooking all the recipes out of it in this pub and learning and trying to get better every day.

My parents didn't understand why I never was at home. I was working mad hours. And then I said, I'll take you, mum. I'll show you where I want to be and what I want to do. So we drove down to Melbourne, got a reservation at Vue de Monde. Before I got there, I wrote a letter to Shannon just to say how much he inspired me, and that one day I wanted to work for him and mentioned everything I wanted to learn from him and where I wanted to go in life. I gave it to the Maitre d' who at the time was Brian Lloyd. He took the letter and I thought, who knows what's going to happen here? I was sitting down with my mum, and 30 minutes later, Shannon stumbled out, shook my hand and started chatting. He said, mate, come back next week, we'll sit down, have a conversation. That led into meeting Ryan Clift at the time, who was the Chef de Cuisine. I came back down to Melbourne from Echuca, sat in a 30-minute interview, and then just before lunch service there were 20 chefs in there flying around, and it was just a vibe. I thought: I want to do that. It went really well and Ryan said, come back next week. So I went back to Echuca, come back the following week, and rolled in at 7.30am after a big night out in town with some friends from university. Big mistake. I walked in at 7.30am and there were about 20 chefs in there running. I thought, wow, what is this? I sat down with Shannon about one o'clock in the morning, and he said, welcome to the team. So that's where it all changed.

That's amazing. That fast pace, that whole vibe must be appealing. It sounds like you were always creative because you were cooking recipes from books and pushing yourself. But when you're starting off as an apprentice and lower in the ranks and all that kind of stuff, do you still feel excited and part of a team?

It depends on the culture. I think back then though, we were in a different world to what we're living in right now. For me, I think I was just very proud to be where I was. When I looked at the team, obviously there are very different individual personalities. Everyone had their own agenda. But when you're surrounded in an environment like that, everyone's got the same goal. It's to be great and to get better every day. Back then Shannon got his third hat, and the place was probably one of the best in the country. We were all striving to get better. When you're surrounded with a team like that, you can only get better. You can only surround yourself with greatness. I really enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong, it was probably one of some of the hardest times of my life. But it was a good environment to learn. If it was like that now in this day and age, you wouldn't see it very often. It is very different now, cultures, the teams, the way they interact. It's a different philosophy for the kids coming through now and how they learn and how they're taught. The team environment's very different.

What do you mean?

Well, I guess, back then, you worked a lot. You worked hard and you worked a lot and you wouldn't question it. You would enjoy it and you'd go after it. Whereas these days, and I think it's for the better. It's just, the work life balance is much more structured. It really helps the generations that are coming through with their mental health. It is also about how you can take working, whether it's 8, 12, 16, 18 hours in a day back into eight hours a day and being more structured in what you can take on. Back then, it used to be the mentality of work, work, work, work, learn, learn, learn, learn. As much as you could. Whereas now, it's very much the same, but you're trying to compact it down into a more structured timeline.

This is a question that's only just come to me right now, so I'm not sure if I can formulate it properly, but I was just thinking when you were saying that, that we, the media, do a lot of saying, Vue de Monde alumni or Attica alumni to give people more weight. When new people are coming through now in some of these big kitchens, are they able to enjoy the moment of being in that kitchen and learning and being part of a team in that moment? Or do you reckon people are always thinking about getting out on their own and being an alumnus?

I think back in the day you probably weren't thinking that. Whereas now, you probably are. I think the amount of time you spend now with chefs is probably a lot less on average than what it used to be. I think these days a lot of chefs coming through speed up the timeline of how long they spend with one chef. I can see the positives around that. I think my mentality back in the day was that it wasn't a timeline. It was about how much I needed to learn from that person. I never thought about alumni. Never once did I think that. I thought I was blessed to be in the position I was in more than what's going to happen next. But we're in a small world, right? Our industry's quite small when you think about it. Everyone knows everyone. Everyone supports everyone. I went to Vue de Monde recently, and Hugh's doing an awesome job over there. I looked at all the chefs in there and you can see the joy in the chef's faces of what they're doing. I feel like back in the day when I was there, it was more like, Jesus, it was hard. It was stressful and you want to do good. But there has been a culture shift. I reckon those chefs in there now are thinking, wow, I'm a part of that Vue de Monde alumni now. Vue de Monde itself, it's a brand. Shannon has created something unbelievable and I think that anyone that walks through the doors there now gets to be a part of the ones that have experienced it in the past.

And how long did you stay?

Three and a half years at Vue.

Wow. That's quite long in today's standards.

It was great. I really enjoyed it. Fun times, hard times. It was probably the hardest stretch of my career, with what we were trying to achieve. To be perfect every day is a challenge. But Shannon and Ryan, they really set the tone of what we were going after and who we wanted to be every day. It was hard, lots of hard work. I was lucky enough to be surrounded and supported by a great family. And my sister used to iron my jackets for me, and I had a lot of moral support from my parents. But that was the hardest, and some of the best times of my life, for sure.

So was it that you came to a certain point then and thought, okay, I need the next challenge?

I think we all hit that in different parts of our life. I felt maybe a little rundown in one spot. I was also very much attached to Ryan, who was the chef de cuisine at the time. He went to open a restaurant in Singapore, called Tippling Club. I felt there was a great opportunity to travel as well, which was something I was really big on and a part of my goals as I was growing to get that experience. I jumped at that chance. Going with Ryan, I guess it still felt like it was Vue de Monde, if that makes sense. He was a very big part of that. So I jumped at that chance. I don't do well with leaving and change very much. When you think about it, I've only ever worked for three or four chefs in my life, so it was a good challenge for me, but a good change of pace and seeing the world as well, being in Singapore, completely different to Melbourne.

What was the dining public in Singapore like at that time? Was it a big change from here?

Well, it was a completely different restaurant. Tippling club was 30 seats around the bar. Vue de Monde was 80 seats, lunch and dinner, it was pretty intense. It was when Ryan was first starting out, so it was a good change of pace. It was just one menu. We weren't focused on lunch and dinner, and it was very much driven from cocktails and food, so it was lots of fun and very different as well.

Shannon's approach is modern French, and Ryan is very contemporary. He was very big on the molecular side of the cuisine world. I got to learn a different part of the food world, I guess. And that's something that I was really big on, learning a different approach to different cuisines and techniques.

Obviously, you probably get asked about this too often, but just touching on the whole Gordon Ramsay thing, I was really delighted to read that you think highly of him and you seemed to learn so much from him in different areas. It's perhaps not a story or a perspective that we might often hear. So from Singapore, did you decide to go to New York?

After Singapore, I went to New York and met Josh Emett and Gordon Ramsay at The London hotel and I learned that they were opening in Maze in Melbourne. So I spent some time with the guys in New York there and then the team from New York, about eight staff came out and set up Maze Grill, Melbourne. Thats when I got real deep into the Gordon life. He didn't visit as much in Melbourne as he did in New York, but I think when you bring the people from his group and his culture, you get a piece of him anyway. We are talking about some of the best talent in the world, so, again, I was feeling very blessed in the position I was at. I got to be at Maze from the start and pre-opening, being a chef, but also looking at it from the other lens, of being an operator, seeing how to set up a restaurant pre-opening, what you have to go through from a food costing perspective, to food tastings, to staff training, to finding the right team, right structure, bringing it all together before you open the doors. We put a lot of effort and time into that before we even opened up for a single diner.That was eye opening for me. Essentially, between the two restaurants, there were about 30, 35 chefs and we weren't even open yet. We were in there cooking food every day, trying to be great, trying to make it perfect, trying to live up to the Gordon Ramsay standard because anything he puts his name to needs to be up to his standards. It was lots of fun and it was very challenging.

What kind of food was that?

Very much Josh Emett being from New Zealand, he brought a bit of that American side of things to very English style Gordon Ramsay food. Smaller portions. I reckon the methodology around the dishes for Maze was that essentially everything had to be cooked or done within eight minutes. So there was a lot of preparation. It was a more avant garde type of dishes. Probably a little bit too English driven for Melbourne. As you would know, we're very fortunate with what we have here, so it's a challenging market to sit in, especially for the talent that come in from overseas. I think we developed over that two year. We probably started with a lot of products from overseas, and then we became a bit more local produce driven. The Maze philosophy was anything that can be cooked within eight minutes and we had one or two hats there. It was a lot of work. It was lots of fun though. I remember at one stage, I first started on the meat section at Maze, and there was me and another chef from Sydney and we'd look around and every section had four or five chefs, and it was just me and him working away making, we had six dishes on the menu, and you're looking at eight to 10 components on each dish. It was a push, that's for sure. And that was when the movement of chefs working eight hours was happening. We had to compact our jobs into eight hour shifts, which was challenging enough considering we had come from doing whatever it takes, whether it was, 10, 12, 14, 16 hour days. That's when the movement changed.

It's interesting thinking about New York versus Melbourne. I was speaking to Jae Bang last week from Freyja, and he was saying that he just loved being in New York for the fact that people in New York are really willing to spend lots of money and they want quality. I think people in Melbourne also want quality, but there's probably less of the being able to spend big money. Is that what you felt as well, that there was a different approach to eating out in New York? Or is it kind of similar but on a smaller scale in Melbourne?

New York's one of the richest cities in the world. But the big thing about New York and what they've done really well for so long is their service, and their service makes you spend. The servers are essentially earning their money through tips. So, of course, it's going to be the best service in the world. They're going to upsell, they're going to push you for more, whereas here in Australia, I'm not saying our service is not great, it's just completely different.

You go to certain groups, like the McConnell Group and you'll find impeccable service. Unbelievable. And when I go to Gimlet, I feel like I'm in New York. But then also when I see the bill, I feel like I'm in New York. But when I think about it, and even think of the likes of Gimlet, essentially their food and what they do is, is great, but it's simple. They're produce driven. They not trying to be what's on trend or any of that kind of stuff. They just do it really well. And that's what New York has always done really well. The spend per head is a little bit different, but again, in New York it costs a fortune just to sit in that restaurant. They're paying their leases or the buildings, even hotels over there, you're not finding a hotel for less than $500 a hour. It's the real estate city of the world.

You've said a couple of times, referring to your experiences of working with really amazing people, that you were really lucky to do that. And I guess like you were lucky, but I feel like these things don't just happen by accident. You obviously had what it takes to be in those places and to be around those people. What do you think it is and was that you need as a chef to be able to tap into that luckiness of being around those good people? You can't just walk in there and be lucky. You have to be offering something. So what do you think that was for you?

Working hard. That's a big key. You have to work hard. I think these days you can definitely have a voice of what you need and what you want to do. I targeted what I wanted and what I needed, and I found a way to surround myself with that. I guess that's who I am, right? I'm very independent. I'm very values driven. I surround myself with people that I think that can help benefit me. At the start it was Shannon Bennett. And having lunch at Vue de Monde, Carlton, I spent the next two years developing myself in a position where I was ready. Then to the point where spending time with Ryan, who I still think is one of the best chefs in the world, I felt like I could do that. I feel like he believed I could be there, so it was a two way street. And then with Gordon, in Melbourne and then back in America, I saw it. I saw a way of learning something different that wasn't just food, he built a empire. It's not too far off my philosophy of surrounding himself with great people. He surrounded himself with great minds that helped build who he is, so I guess it's understanding the metrics of what you need as where you want to go and having goals and then going after it, chase them and do whatever it takes to get there.

Sometimes opportunities arise and if they're the right ones, it's because you know that's what you're after. If you don't know what you're after, you can't chase what you need. I guess that's how I looked at it. It always takes a little bit of luck as well. Right time, right place, putting yourself in the right position. I didn't just go into Shannon Bennett's Vue de Monde and go, I'm ready to go. I went and did the work. I cooked his whole book before I even started there. So, you put in the work and you want to evolve and you want to get better every day. That's important.

It feels like a little similar vein, in the intentional way you've set up your group. You have quite a few venues. Would you say it's an empire? And we thought we got through lockdowns, but I guess the cost of living is pinching, because I've been saddened and surprised to see a number of places I wouldn't have expected saying that they weren't going to open their doors in 2024. They shut at Christmas, said, See you in 2024. But they've not been able to reopen. That's come up a few times already over January. But you have several places. Clearly there's more involved than just luck in having places in Coogee and here and elsewhere. Was it always your plan to have several different things on the go? Or has that just happened?

I think my goal has always been to go after a group. Knowing who I am and what I've done, I get bored really easily. But saying that, you evolve, and I'm sitting here today thinking, God, it'd be great just to have just one. The more people you get, the more challenges you have from a structure perspective, but also how you operate. It is challenging out there for small businesses. We're fortunate that a lot of our venues are in hotels. When you look at hotels, we're sitting in a hotel that has 250 rooms above us. That's people that could come in and eat lunch and dinner in the vicinity of 20 steps. So I look at it from a different lens to what a lot of small businesses do. But I like the fact that there are different ways to express how I look at food.

You've got a Taqueria, a dive bar.

All types of venues and we're just about to open Oddies as well next week across at the Crown Plaza, Melbourne, which is like a little bistro. There are different ways to express my love of food out to the community, and that's something that keeps me sane. It has been a challenging three, four years, hasn't it? And I feel like it's getting harder. But you have to be able to adapt. Instead of looking at what we can't do, we look at what we can do. Were in this phase of menu engineering our food to be simpler; less ingredients on the plate, more produce driven, more efficient techniques, how to support the labour side of things. That's something that without being around Gordon or the guys that've been around, I wouldn't have been able to adapt and course correct and help our businesses succeed and move in a direction where it can keep the doors open. That's how we look at it. But I have a lot of friends out therewho might not open the doors again, but then I have some friends out there chasing it and still going after it and opening a new restaurants. I'm not saying it's luck.I think it's a lot of hard work, and you have to have a really good strategy. You have to have a really good approach. And also the biggest thing we invest in is the people. You have to find the people, invest in the people, support the people, and bring the best out in them. And that's something that when you have a group, that's where my focus really aligns with: finding the right people and supporting them. Setting them up for success is the most important thing.

Absolutely. So Oddies will be a bistro?

An everyday occasion bistro.

Oh, nice. So Modern Australian or French?

Australian with French techniques. I think the days of labels have changed a little bit. My motto around this is that it is an everyday occasion bistro. I think it's more about what the community and what the guests want now. Were going through a phase at the moment where simpler is better, so things like steak frites and roast chicken frites with tarragon gravy. Nice pate, oysters. All those types of beautiful things, even surf and turf is on the menu. It's very much a strategy around the guests that are in that hotel, from corporates to the leisure market. We focused in on research on who our clientele there is and understanding what the clientele want. That's what we've developed in Oddies. And that's my approach when we are creating venues now. I'm working on one at the moment over at Kingsford in Adelaide, in the Barossa. It was where they filmed McLeod's Daughters, the TV show. So I am just working through a strategy on the concept to what the guests want and what the clientele is. That's where we emphasize and spend a lot of time on before we create and make a venue, which is a little bit different to what small businesses might look at, the new players in the game who have set up restaurants or cafes. We have a different approach. There is a lot of research involved.

Are you still on the pans?

My heart will always be on the pans. I think these days it's more around events. Next week I get to cook at the NBL, at Melbourne United Basketball in the Chairman's lounge, events like that. I still love to get on the pans and cook and it's a way of showcasing me and my personality and who I am. I am still really heavily involved in menu creation. Spending time with the chefs is one of my biggest things I've always said from day one, I had the chance to be around Gordon and Shannon and I've always said to spend time with the chefs and involve them and get them in the position to be, from a financial perspective, a six figure chef. But also in a position that they can have the ability not just to create menus, but cost menus and operate restaurants, which is key. That's what I spend my time focusing on. Sometimes I love just getting in the kitchen, cooking on the pans or being with the head chef, and these days they don't like me around too much, they try and kick me out. My heart will always be there and I'm lucky enough to still cook for a lot of people outside the restaurants. That's where I spend some time. But these days, very much the emphasis is working on the business, rather than in it.

With all that in mind, your own experience as well as working with so many great people, what would your advice be to a young person who was thinking about becoming a chef or starting off on that chef's journey?

Set yourself a goals list. What do you want to learn? Who you want to be around and dial in on that. Focus on what cuisine you want to cook? My philosophy has always been is it French? Is it Australian? Is it Japanese? Go spend time and spend it wisely. Surround yourself with great people, passionate people, with an end goal of what you want to get out of it is an important piece.

I think that's something that I always tell my guys; I don't expect to hold anyone forever. I expect them to have the goals of what they want to learn and how long it's going to take and understand that and commit to that and have a bit of loyalty to that. Be transparent. If you do that, then a bit of old school thinking, I'll help you go to the next spot, because it is a small community. Everyone knows everyone. Everyone's looking for staff. You do your time, learn what you need to learn, and then get the help for what's next. And that's something I'm really big on. I never say I want to keep people, even though I have a bunch of chefs that've been with me for a long time. My group chef's been with me 10 years, but you know, I'm always pushing to put more experience into them. Whether it's staging at other restaurants, whethertheir time's done here, and they need to shift their focus because if end goal is to have their own restaurant, they need to be out there with others to understand different sides of the business or the cooking side of things for what their end goal is. Have goals, set them and be loyal to them. Stay true to your values and who you are, and get in there and work hard. That's the best advice that I ever got.

My dad always said, "Surround yourself with the best if you want to be in the company of the best." So that's something that I always tell the guys that are coming up.

Ronnie's, Melbourne