David Zhou

Hi David. How are you? Congratulations on 20 years. That's such an achievement.

I was just sitting here, thinking about how we started and I was looking across the road. We were down there. Initially in Prahran, Windsor area, a very little 30 square metre, little tea shop. I moved to 256 Chapel Street and I was there for many years. Then I moved here and it was a big move. I still remember I thinking, can I do it? In the end I jumped in.

We were very excited because at David's restaurant at the time, I tried to do my tea. But then in the end, the staff in hospitality we hired were all working with fully licensed venues, and they were used to selling more wine than tea. So they didn't have much feeling for it. I thought, I will set it up like a teahouse and then they can't really take that away. When we came here, it had been a pub, European looking very heavy wood and a little bit depressing. We painted it old China white.

This is the calming concentration tea. It has wolfberry or goji, it's very common in China. It is good for kidneys, good for your liver in Chinese concept. And it has lychee meat.

Lovely! So you took this over and painted everything China white.

It was almost like a little Chin Chin at the time. I remember John Lethlean back then, people almost religiously followed him. He called me and said, David, can I come have a look? I said, no. Can I come and look yet? I said No so many times. Because I was nervous. I was thinking,will the teahouse work, I don't know. We opened and he thought it was really good. I did not really have any hospitality experience back then. Every week I had a review somewhere. I thought that was normal. And sometimes two to three like that. And if there was a week without a review, I thought, what's wrong? Until later when people told me, not it wasnt like that. I was lucky because even back then at Davids, I asked writers to leave. Because we had a menu and we had goji berry tea, things like that, and the lamb dish which was warming and good for kidney and duck alleviates dry skin. And I had a few words at the top of each category on the menu to explain that. We were very new. People talked about all that and it attracted a lot of attention. People would come and write about it. And so the staff said there, these people are copying. I said, it doesn't matter, it is all on the menu and we have a menu outside. But I looked over, and they would hide what they were writing. I said, can I help you? We were very proud of the menu and it was almost still warm from the printer. But they ordered, finished, and they walked out the door, then they came back. They said they felt very awkward and that I didnt seem to understand that they were actually secret reviewers and I had drawn attention to it. I said if that makes you uncomfortable, you don't really have to do that, you don't have to come. I was very stupid. But I learned from all these things. Some people said we copied the idea from somewhere like New York or Paris, that they had seen things like this there. But I hadn't even seen that. I hadn't been to these places.

What made you decide to open something in 1993? Have you always been involved with tea?

Yes and I tried to really do tea and David's was my tea warehouse. Back then everyone used tea bags so using real tea was something. I thought, well it looks lovely, but people don't really understand it. Some people even said, we get our tea from Coles, why would people come to get your whatever tea. Just like back then trying to sell wine to Chinese people. You say, this is red, this is white. If you say this is Shiraz or Bordeaux, you confuse them. They would say, I just want the red wine. Same thing, they just wanted tea. So I thought, I might mix it with food, whatever can represent the level of the tea. The tea was definitely not the average tea they serve in Chinatown though.

Even now, I don't know if they get that kind of tea. It's the producer providing the wrong things. That's why I don't like tea there. I dont think it represents my nationality. We have something subtle, nice, elegant. Why don't you bring that over here. That's why I don't really particularly like Lion Dance. We started doing it after many years, because people were always asking. I feel it's just a noise there's nothing good about it. But in the end, the staff said, can you please just leave it to us? We will manage it and not make too much noise. And people like it, Chinese people too. think the tea is like that too.

remember a lady from Taiwan, she said, David, the food is good over at Flower Drum, and they dont charge me for the tea. You charge me for the tea. I was thinking, what's the big deal charging you $3.50 or $2.50 a cup. This tea is a hundred American dollars a kilo. But you can't tell a customer that. The lady tried to explain to me, tried to teach me what to do. But the funny thing is that she came back years later, and said, David, your tea is better.

There were a lot of learning curves. I tried to make a way to sell tea so it somehow connected with the dumplings. People came for the dumplings and I hoped they would start to enjoy the tea as well. So they were learning and I was learning. You cant just sell tea. You need to have something. Especially in Melbourne, there are so many things. It's an international city. Melbourne food is better than Sydney. Finer and more choices. So I needed to incorporate all that. Then we put on Japanese whiskeys and Japanese craft beer. At one stage we had 50 different kinds of craft beer. It is so difficult to manage because they're all very small batch each time. In the end we stayed with the whiskey and some Japanese and local rice lager, its quite pleasant. We incorporate with the Melbourne drink and food things.

This is a tea I blended from about 30 years ago. You keep topping up and then when you don't want to drink any more, you eat the big pieces. It is supposed to nourish the heart in Chinese concept. We think Chinese thinking is not from the brain, but from the heart. I usually don't talk a lot. When we talk a lot, we use a lot of saliva and that will make people start to lose memory strength and get forgetful. Where is the car key? Where did I park the car? It is not just early aging. The heart is hurting. You can nourish the heart like a little Chinese date, you make a tea or a soup and it's nourishing to the heart. It scratches the right place and you feel calm, but you can be sharp. So it's almost like calm concentrate.

And how do you know about all these teas and their properties?

I think just growing up in China. Of course, not everybody there knows, but generally speaking. One of my first memories is seeing my father making tea. I always remember he set up a little bench and would have all these little cups, different sizes, different kinds of teas. He would use different green tea, oolong and longjing, half fermented and white tea. He would have different temperatures and he poured and tasted a little bit.

And when I started the tea here and he came over and because we have tea shop and the different people, when they import, they will come to the shop and say, I've got something you might like? And he would taste it and say, this tea, no, don't touch it. Don't even drink it. Even they give it to you for free. This tea may be okay. He has excellent taste. His father was a herbalist. Tea, herbs and food in Asian culture actually from the same source.

It feels as though many Chinese people are much more in tune with their bodies and with those different things that herbs can do and tea and even breath, tai chi and all of that kind of thing as well. In the western world, we've lost a lot of that connection.

They have a strong history of why they do that. I think Chinese medicine, it's like Indian, Ayurveda or Greek. It is called Chinese medicine, but it is not necessarily purely just from Chinese head. It's from a whole lot of things together. And then people eating and tasting and thinking, melon seeds can relieve this or that. It is from years of people trying things. Not like clinical testing for hundred people, a thousand people, it is years of it.

OK. Just to talk about the dumplings. I was reading about some quite interesting flavours that you've got for your birthday celebration, but it's not really fusion though, is it? It's authentic, but also there is another element.

I know it's confusing. It's authentic but it's not authentic. My understanding of authentic, is that principle wise, you stay with them. At David's we've got a dish that illustrates this. In Shanghai we use pork belly cooked with egg, boiled egg. There werent many resources for food. It's soy sauce based and a bit sweet and then cooked for a long, long, time so the egg cracks and the egg goes yellow and the fat from the pork belly, goes into it and it goes with steamed rice. It's really heart-warming things for us to even see those things. But other, there is plenty of food, that kind of dish is not so special anymore. Here I think people would have more of a connection to potato with the skin on. It looks like egg. But to people here it is a comfort food; potato more than egg. So I put that idea with the pork belly. The pork belly fat goes into the chopped potato. I think that version of authenticity is about connection. I don't how to describe it. That's what I try to do.

You are the one here that has those ideas?

All the time. Now it's much less. My daughter runs things more now. She started at 14 years. Now she runs the operation. I'm lucky. Not every child wants to do that a lot of time.

Tell me more about the flavours.

We are bringing back flavours from over the years; I think we have a kimchi pork dumpling. Lamb and cumin. We have a Shanghai prawn dumpling, we have a chestnut dumpling that's, sweet.

It is a celebration. 20 years is when a person starts getting a little bit mature. I think the business should be like that too. I used to hold a Wednesday meeting religiously, it doesn't matter what happened. Even over lockdown, we still had the Wednesday meeting.Every time you try to make this one hour meaningful, people leave feeling better clarity instead of just, what was that guy trying to say. It's not easy though. It's not easy to transition from my generation to my daughter's generation. For example, when I come here, Im really tempting to go into the kitchen because all the older staff have followed me for all these years. But if I go in there and unthinkingly suggest something to the older staff, all of a sudden I start to have a multiple communication, and they will listen to me rather than the young team. All of a sudden they are confused. I need to be very disciplined and go for clarity instead of just adding multiple layers of things.

I guess that thoughtfulness is a reason why it has lasted 20 years? Lots of businesses open and close and to keep going for 20 years and to have staff that have been with you for so long as well. It sounds as though you're a really self-aware and thoughtful leader.

I don't know if I'm a leader. If I dont have to talk, I would rather stay back. Over the years I have had to make myself like that. I have had to learn about being recorded on interviews, TV. And I have to speak the language. I had trouble with English, but I understand more and more what other people try to tell me. I think you're right, it has a lot to do with the character of the operator or owner of the business.

I think that that it's almost like Japanese called Zen, in Chinese, it's another word that's actually a Chinese philosopher. I always try to explain to my daughter, you try to be better yourself every day. Of course you need to watch what other people are doing. But mainly you watch yourself. You try to be better all the time. Chinese people say it's like an iron bar, you polish and polish. As long as you're consistent, if you keep polishing, it will become a very sharp, shining needle. I think that's consistency. You need to have that kind of mindset like that, all that all the shiny things doesn't give you anxiety, because Mexican is popular, then Japanese sushi, Indian, all these different trends. I stay with the dumpling and polish it. Then people ask what else you can do? People sell lobster. You need to sell hundreds of dumplings to cover one lobster. I need to get to a certain level and I feel comfortable with myself. But so many restaurants are opened by developers? That's how we went to Chadstone and Melbourne Central and we were on the way to franchise. Then I think, No, no. I didn't want that. It's like a 3D picture, including the customer. It's like virtual social media. It's about the people. Asian people all go the tea house to get comfort, get the little bit local community, but you need to give them a reason to stay for that. The tea needs to be quality. You cant take that for granted. And you have to be consistent. You can't think you only have to be good this time. People can feel the effort you try to make.

Over the years we have had baby showers then celebrated their 21st birthday. People have, met here, married, had a baby. And on Valentine's Day I walked past a couple having a photo in the window seat. They said they sat there, the first time and bumped each other, and they excused each other but then there was chemistry and they got married. They come every Valentine's day and sit in the same spot.

I love that. That's so sweet. I was quite nervous to come today because you are such a big name in Melbourne. Everyone knows David's and Oriental Tea House. It feels like a really Melbourne restaurant as well because people have embraced it so much. You are clearly providing what people want as well as comfort food and good food, good tea. It is accessible, isn't it? It doesn't feel too hard for people to come.

It's quite hard to pinpoint it. I think we are lucky. I think hard work is important, for sure. But I think you need to be stubborn enough, to continue regardless. People see you or not, whatever. That's why over then lockdowns it was really difficult. We put the chairs up every evening, even without customers, cleaned the floor then put them back up on the tables.It was like a war zone on Chapel Street, but we didn't want to be like that. We didnt want people to look in and see chairs up and it was good for the staff. It cost real money though. You have to keep the pulse all the time. That's something to do with longevity thinking, being better every day

It would have given people purpose too and rhythm to their life.

Rhythm. Yes, thats perfect.

On the website, there is a little boy running. Is that you running through the streets? And the story about you getting up and running into the street to get food.Tell me about that.

I lived in Shanghai, in Nanjing Road. The street has become westernized now with hotels and so on. Our house was in the middle of it all in a shoe shop upstairs. I remember that spot so clearly. The whole street, south street is just all different food. Different kinds of a specialized prawn dumpling or rice bowls or chicken. Nanjing Road is so noisy. It is like you are living next to 10 Revolvers all the time. People never stop. It's hard to sleep. So in the evening time, I would take my mother's bike – we were on the first floor Id go out, take a little bit money, and go have wonton soup and have pepper. There was only me, one customer at that age. It's a strange one.

Do you do wonton soup here?

On and off. Not all the time.

And how old were you when you came to Australia?

29 or 30. That's why my English is like this.

You obviously have lots of memories of growing up in China then.

Yes and no, with the time, more and more fadeds away.

I mean, even 1993 would've been quite different to now in terms of Chapel Street and the city.

My wife is going back to see her parents soon. And I might have to go with her. I haven't been back for a very, very long time. I have nobody there. Here's my home, but then again, I'm definitely not the same as a local for sure. Then when you go back to wherever you came from, and I think you're definitely from not there anymore. No one knows you. You are just floating.

That's right. Well, even coming from New Zealand, I've been here 12 years and I love New Zealand. I think it's beautiful. But this feels like home here as well. But then I'll always feel like a New Zealander. The habits are different, the food is different, the weather is different. You have to establish a new network.

The whole society and system are different. I slept in almost every suburb moving almost daily. I slept in people's bathtubs at night and ate lunch on the floor. Because I did not really understand how things worked. I was nearly on the street. I bought a little bit of rice and the smallest possible amount of butter but the longer you stay, the more things you accumulate.When I made the last move, I thought, I cannot move anymore because I cannot take these things with me anymore.

I did the first job in Windsor, the 30 square metre shop, with no tools at all. Nothing. To measure, I got all the newspapers people throw away and folded them over and then used those to measure. I found a broken hammer. I found a broken ladder.

My daughter takes care of a lot of things now. She has a really good heart and never complains. She is always very happy, works hard in hospitality, and she is always very appreciative. I never really think I would get hospitality. But now I think, you meet people, you learn a lot. I really genuinely believe the leader of the country should have a little bit of hospitality experience. They are under stress, they have to smile, they have to have a way of addressing whatever comes. It's like an actor, you go on stage and have to be good all the time and then serve. Politicians need those skills and that experience. Otherwise, going from professional to that, how can they do it?

I agree. And I think in hospitality, you have to navigate your way through some challenging evenings and sometimes challenging customers or situations or whatever it is. But you have to believe you're going to get to the other side and you want everyone to have a nice time. I totally agree with you, I think that's a really important skill to have.

It's a lot of learning as a human and understanding human interaction. That's why I asked my daughter, she was studying marketing and was very good. Then one year I asked, do you want to go to another university? Which other university? I was sitting at Davids. I said, here. Be the manager here. She was very young. Then later she told me that she went to talk to the professor. She said, I'm not coming back tomorrow anymore. I'm going to go to another university. The professor was very confused. She totally turned Davids around.

My daughter is very genuine. I remember when she started here, and the bar was open late. She would ask me to pick her up and say to come at 12.30am But it would be 2.30am before she came out. I asked her about it and she told me she was saying goodbye to everyone. A very long goodbye. You have to try the white chocolate dumplings.

I've never had a sweet dumpling.

It's like mochi and then as soon as you cut it open, the white chocolate pours out. It has a sticky crust. Chinese usually do red bean paste or black sesame and they will never touch chocolate. That's almost illegal. They just don't do it. The chef just will not do it. I said just let's try to do it. And now we have the dark chocolate one, white chocolate, we have so many interesting battles. Here the dumpling is the main thing. So the dumpling master needs to be really in control of the whole operation back of house. My dumpling master is a 40 plus dumpling master, eight years study. I even did a master class. Easy to do it. But if you want to be really, really good, and know all the chemical reactions, steamed even frozen. For him to cook a frozen one, it is better than other people wrapping and cooking them fresh on the spot. So then to ask people like that to put chocolate in. They'll tell you so many reasons. That's not right.

There's a very clear line to get them to step over. It's political, like a battle. And then bit by bit that line disappeared. I have no method, I am just stubborn, consistent and just nice all the time. They think, that guy wouldn't let it go.

The sweet dumplings would be popular though with the public wouldn't they?

Very popular. And that's why when they see that once, twice, three times, they think, this guy's not just talking silly things. There's a reason behind it and then they come along with you, they contribute, and they start to have a bit more spark, and then they start to take your idea seriously.

Oriental Tea House, Chapel Street & Little Collins Street