Brad Cunningham

Hi Brad. How has your day been?

It has been quite productive. It has been a quiet winter, but we had a busy night last night. We trialled our $39 vegetarian feast that we will be running in two weeks time. The Neighbourhood nights. The owner, Martys wife and a bunch of their friends came in and they trialled it, and they had no feedback, which was good. They were all a bunch of South African ladies and I'm sure they would've given decent feedback if there was any, so Im pleased that it went well.

That's awesome. I wanted to talk a bit about that. I've got a lot to talk to you about. First of all, obviously there's a Kiwi connection.

I just heard that when you said Kiwi.

I see you started off training in, was it Palmerston North?

I went to culinary school in Whanganui. I was 19 and I was the head chef of this restaurant. It was crazy. It was deemed to be the best restaurant in Whanganui at the time. A situation of events caused me to be the, the fill in head chef.

What kind of food were they doing?

It was 1999. So it's going back quite a while. I remember we did these really good egg benedict on English muffins with bacon or spinach or whatever. And then really nice hollandaise. And then we used to do the old balsamic swirl and some capsicum relish, and everyone used to just go crazy for that. Then we did a chicken Caesar, but we built it into PVC piping and then pressed it and then topped it with kumara chips.

It sounds pretty innovative.

It was pretty avant garde for the time, I think, and for the regional little city. We made curry oils and all sorts of weird and whacky things back then.

How did you know how to do that? Was that what the people were doing when you went there?

Exactly. Pretty much. I did change the menu after the head chef left. He moved down the road to his own cafe, and I used to go there with my script and I'd be taking notes of his feedback on the menu that I had put forward. I had no idea what I was doing. I was still watching Jamie Oliver videos. I was very much self-taught, I suppose, at that stage. And whereabouts in New Zealand are you from?

I'm from Christchurch. I was just thinking, it's really interesting because I went to France for a year in 1993 – 94. And I was watching what they were doing. I lived in the south of France and I thought we had nothing at home that was like what I saw in the South of France. And I didn't think we'd be able to get, you know, truffles and all that stuff, but now it's all really abundant and it's all there in New Zealand. So I guess things might have changed a little bit by 1999 in Whanganui, but I'm impressed with what you were doing. You cooked somewhere in Christchurch as well.

That's right. I worked at Pescatore at the George Hotel.

Wow. They always had a good name.

Absolutely. It was a seafood restaurant, a lot of Japanese tourists. It was really cool. I was a CdP, but I was essentially running Pescatore because the executive chef Nathan Bates, he was there for 10 years and he'd worked on himself up to Executive Chef, but he had no idea what good food was. And I'd just come from the French Cafe, and I was bringing all this maybe refined fine dining French style to it. Then there was a vacancy for the sous chef, and I put my hand up for it and he said, nah. And I thought, wow. Okay. Alright, see you later then.

When was that?

2006, I think. It was a crazy time back then, but I'd worked, I worked in Wellington briefly when I first left Whanganui and then Christchurch, and then went back to Whanganui for a short time before I went travelling.

And what made you get into it in the first place?

Oh, it's a really boring story. But my mum and dad owned a rest home and mum was doing her Food Safety certificate through the local polytechnic, and she was super time poor. I just saw this booklet sitting at breakfast table every day then I going off to school, or to my first job, mowing lawns back then. And then I thought, what is this? I started reading it and it just clicked. It just made sense. I thought it was easy. I suggested filling it in for her and then I was interested. Then she said, this is the school, you should go to the open night and I did. I had no idea what I wanted to do my last year of high school. I thought Id be off to Canada as an exchange student, I didn't want to do the last year of high school, I just wanted to go overseas and play sport, and then I realized that Id injured myself. And I needed a back-up plan.

But then you did get to go overseas anyway.

Absolutely. So that's how I got into cooking and everything just lined up, I suppose.

I've never heard that story before. No one's pulled out food safety. But we know we're in good hands now though.

Compliance is very important.

So you've tended to be in fine dining. And I heard you say on another podcast that you werent initially interested in cafes or catering and you were more drawn to fine dining. Theres a lot of precision in that and a lot of pressure, I would say. But what is it about fine dining that you love?

I think it's the skill-based stuff that I love the most, and the technical side of being able to make something, fix something, understand the products and where they're best adapted to on menu. I suppose I've kind of fallen out of fine dining because of the pretentiousness, the crazy shifts that you come across. The hours, the money was average, all these things so, why would I do it? I needed to reinvent myself. I always see cooking as a circle. I had a good chunk of that pie and wondered what other parts of that hospitality industry there were to explore? That's why I thought I'd go do catering and cafes and I need to know volume and I need to know business acumen. I really wanted to understand the financials. People always talk about food costs and wage costs and labour costs and all these things. I really wanted to explore those fields to be very well rounded. There are so many chefs out there who are super creative, but they just don't have the organization behind themselves to make a difference. I suppose I've always prided myself on trying to be creative, but also have some, you know organization behind that.

So now that you've tried all those different areas, where does Waygood fit in?

I suppose I align this with Islington, the time at Ottolenghi, a small seater really, small kitchen, same cool room space and everything. I've gone full circle wanting to reinvent myself again, just to go back and do something with my knowledge and experience. It's a hard one to really pinpoint. I suppose I was just feeling no job satisfaction with working my way up and sitting on board meetings and telling other people what to do and supporting people, other chefs and, and kitchen teams. For a long time I just felt a bit numb, but I thought, I'm 40, I wanted to be out of the kitchens at 40 and now I'm want to go back into the kitchens. I still feel like I've got more to offer and I don't want just nine to five, come home, cook dinner, put the kids to bed, watch tv. I felt as though it wasn't a tributing to anything. So much to my wife's dismay, Ive gone back to five nights a week. With two little kids.

You achieved your goal of becoming executive chef by the time you're 40. It is interesting that that wasn't what you thought it would be for you.

I think probably the whole Covid era mucked things up a little bit, because I had to kind of dig deep and reinvent these restaurants, not reinvent, but really try and identify what those kitchen briefs were, what those restrictions were in terms of what menus best suited those venues. I had to re recruit five head chefs over that period. I got them set up again, in and out of those lockdowns and then kind of made myself redundant. I hadn't made the position redundant because someone still needed to come in and be that support person, but I felt like it was a good time to move on. They were totally accepting of it and wished me well.

Just to go back to Ottolenghi, because I really think I love him, and I hope I'm not told otherwise. He sounds so nice. I've listened to two podcasts this week where he has been the guest. He's so articulate and he has a really nice voice as well. And he sounds as though he would be nice to work for. But, is he?

Absolutely. He had someone, I think her name was Colleen, she was the kind of a bad cop. He was super lovely, but if there was an issue or ever anything that came up with any of the staff, she would step in. She was in that GM role. When he was in the kitchen and someone was not working doing something that they shouldn't, he wouldn't say anything to them, he would talk to the head chef and they would have to say something. I never heard him say any kind of strict words, he was always very, very nice about it. I suppose it's a reflection on his food and the kind of people that are attracted to him. It was very collaborative.

It sounds like that you learned a lot there, even though you'd already come a long way as a chef.

I was bringing a lot of ideas to that space and, you know, a lot of ideas were not backed or they were simplified. And at the time it was hard to accept that. Every chef has got an ego, whether they like to admit it or not. There's different levels of those egos. And I suppose, turning up in London and coming off the Gordon Ramsay train and working at Ottolenghi, I suppose I did have the reaction of, but can't we just put that on the plate? I was trying to do my own cooking. I was cooking for my own ego, I suppose. That's one valuable lesson that many, many years later I still go back to. And I even use the same advice when talking to chefs that have done a similar thing to me. Just keep it simple. I say to them that I dont know how to describe or explain to you anymore, but, one day you will look back and you will appreciate that someone had this conversation with you.

I find that fascinating though, because is he not the one that has so many ingredients in his recipes?

Well yeah, there's lots of background ingredients. I wouldn't say there's so many ingredients. It's a treasure trove. I'm sure the test kitchen is crazy now with the amount of different chefs he's had. He will employ someone now that's got an Indian skill set or knowledge base. And he really taps into those different cuisines. He is constantly being inspired by new things to play with. Yeah, there's a lot of ingredients. It's crazy.But then those are the background flavours that really drive that product forward. And it could just be a marinade or a rub or a dressing, definitely not shy with the herbs and the freshness there, but always questioning, does it need to be there? Does it add to it? Or does it take over?

And do we describe the food that is happening there as Middle Eastern? Is it something different?

Well, no, I was doing Japanese. I remember they had a little dish that was rehydrated seaweed and I made a salad with mustard cress. And I had candied ginger dressing and then a nori crusted with togarashi lamb fillet and slow roasted cherry tomatoes. And I made this little stack salad thingy with lamb on top. I was definitely pushing different boundaries.

But what's his brief, what would he say to you? How do you know that it's okay to do that?

I think the first conversation was, okay, write me a menu and see what it sounds like on paper. So I did that and he would choose a few, and say, cook these ones for me. But then after that I was coming up with a dish, then cooking it for him at the start of the week. If it needed more work or if it was okay, it was good to go. But then he would eat it as a customer without me knowing and then give me feedback.

That's a bit tricky, isn't it?

It's such a great way of giving feedback. It's such a constructive space. For a lot of chefs, they don't like criticism. They don't like feedback. They think that their food is great, and that's that. And sometimes it's hard to hear, especially when you are really excited or passionate about a specific project and you get a little knock back and you're like, okay, well I'll just swallow that. It's only my pride that's hurt here.

How does that work then? Because I feel like everyone's a critic these days and everyone's jumping online and giving their 2 cents worth. Do you avoid looking at that or do you look at what people say about your food?

I don't really know. This is the first time I've been in that space in 10 years. I've had five years with Riverland Group, which is essentially a pub led group, beverage being a 60% driver of that. I don't really read too much into it. There was a review the other day that Marty sent through to me, and they were raving about this and that. But I read between the lines and thought, yeah, we should have another vegetarian main. I don't really like all the fluff. This table of South Africans last night couldn't have said more. I even brought out the cauliflowers and put them on the table and when they were all, wrapping up and paying, I was organizing the fridge. I don't really want all that noise. I just want real feedback. Im just a humble boy born in Palmerston North. Parents did a good job.

How would you describe the food here then?

I suppose we are tapping into a bit more of that Middle Eastern spectrum, but rather than using too many buzzwords or cooking words, just saying what things are, not wanting the menu here to be something someone has to get out their phone and look up things. I just want it to be clean and simple. Nothing that's too complicated. Just colours, flavours that make people happy. It's good. It kind of releases that kind of dopamine, that's what we're trying to do. When I took over this place, there was of kind of pretentiousness that I don't think was very welcoming. The business was not doing as great as the chefs thought it was. So looking into the Middle Eastern thing just clicked with me. I saw some spices in the cupboard and I saw what dead stock that there was hanging over and I thought, I need to use this because I need to bring down the food costs for this business owner. Then just having a deep dive into Swan Street and seeing what there was and what there wasn't. I'd recently interviewed for a job on Chapel Street for Henrietta. They are setting up shop opposite Mt Miyagi. They've got the best charcoal chicken, theyre all about toum and koftas, Fattoush salads and a very Middle Eastern kind of vibe. The owners are Israeli. So I suppose I was just thinking, oh, that's trending. I started looking into Sydney's Middle Eastern scene which is very abundant and affluent, Surrey Hills is full of all these little great little spots. And then I started looking at Melbourne and back in the day there was Greg Malouf and that whole story, and Middle Eastern was very popular there, but what have we got now? We've got Maha, we've got a few little bits and bobs here and there, so I thought it could work. I talked to Marty and said, let's go for it, but let's not pigeonhole ourselves. We'll still have a pasta of the day. We'll still have charcuterie, we'll just cook food for what it is. And I suppose just really leaning into that vegetarianism as well.

Nice. Do you have to take the wine into consideration with the food, given it's a wine bar?

To be honest, I haven't given it any thought. I think you can make it go with anything. We are trying to do small produced wines, but that's his challenge. He's the beverage guy. He's coming to the party with spiced pomegranate margaritas and tapping into or exploring that Middle Eastern drink offer. But to answer your question, no, I haven't really considered the wine. I've just kind of thought, Australian wine is new world wine. It can go with anything.

And the Neighbourhood Nights, how does that work?

It will be Tuesday nights. We thought Tuesday because across the road at the Union House, they do a steak night Wednesday. Next door they have pasta night on Wednesday. So we thought, let's not compete. Let's just go Tuesday night. I think the idea came from Sunday lunch, our PR company. Mia Barry from Sunday Lunch tossed around the idea and I thought, absolutely. That's perfect. Then we decided on a price, and we went fairly low, $39. Essentially it's three courses. There's food on arrival. Then the entree comes out and you make your own falafel wrap. The main course is the whole roast cauliflower with a knife in it and some deep-fried Brussel sprouts. And you just keep your plates, we dont change them. We are trying to create a sense of fun. We want locals to feel happy to just come and feel comfortable, not feel like someone's watching you to put down that wine glass, or youve left to go to the bathroom and your serviette has to be folded up again. We are just trying to break down some of those things.

That sounds good. I love all the lighting in here and the distressed wall. It's cosy isn't, it? It feels like you can come and be relaxed.

When I first walked in, it was cold. All the chairs were on the table and I sat down and had a four hour conversation. To be given autonomy of a menu these days with all these restaurant groups buying up all these small little place and you have to pass your food by somebody, but for Marty just to trust me with a menu, to do whatever I want. It reminds me of those Ottolenghi days. It's pretty rare. But he would taste it, as I said, he'd come in and try it.

You've had a few years in the game. What would your advice be to a young person thinking about becoming a chef?

I suppose right now, there's so much change in the hospitality industry. I would say that the most important thing is to question things. I don't think there's enough young chefs that actually question why do we do that? Or even just ask questions. When you start in this industry, you're scared. You even see front of house being too scared to move and moving at such a fast pace. People wonder how they can time questions so they get answered and are heard. So they dont ask. But its what I look for when I have someone doing a trial. If they're asking questions, I'm happy to answer those questions. It's great. You are going to go far if you're able to question things. But then, it can be annoying as a chef to answer these questions. You need to have the right questions, I suppose. If I was starting again, I don't know, I might have gone into sound engineering or music producing or something that was creative. Being a chef is hard on the body. Wear the right footwear, try and eat. Bring your meals with you, drink water. Its not for everyone. I hope neither of my kids become chefs. I hope they're foodies. I hope they appreciate, good food, good wine. But I would hate for them to follow in my footsteps. I mean, part of me would be proud. But there are easier ways to make money.

But obviously something keeps you in there.

That's right. Sometimes you fall out of love with it after a bad service. But ultimately it's the food that you are drawn back to. And ultimately it comes down to that passion and putting those beautiful ingredients on a plate and everything coming together. The most fun stage I like is actually writing the menu and making sure it's all cohesive, you're not repeating any words, and flows and there's something for everyone. The trickiest part is probably the menu testing phase and writing those recipes. And then I suppose the reward is finally putting those on the plate and you're like that slaps, or that didn't work. Sometimes it's the dishes that you think will work the most don't, and then the things that you're not sure about, just fall on the plate.

WAYGOOD, 213 Swan Street, Richmond.