Nathan Scarfo

Welcome to Conversation with a chef, Nathan. You’re my 201st conversation.

Wow, I like that.

I’ve been doing a little bit of reading about you and there are a couple of things I find quite fascinating; your speciality being risotto and parfaits as well.

And parfait?

Yeah apparently that was a thing in the tv show, Restaurant Revolution where you had a pop-up restaurant.

That old chestnut. Look we did do a bit of parfait, but I wouldn’t call it one of my specialities. But definitely risotto is. Risotto and pasta are my two bad boys; they’ve always been my best friends.

Always? Is that a family thing?

Not so much risotto. Risotto for me growing up as a young kid wasn’t so much a thing. We ate it of course but pasta was always huge. At least three nights a week we would eat pasta, it’s crazy. 

What’s your background?

My mum is from Germany and my dad is from Italy, but they were both born here, welcome to Melbourne.

Absolutely. Did you always think you’d be a chef?

Yeah, actually I did. From a young age. My dad builds restaurants so I’ve always been in and out of them, and seen them being built. I guess I was meant to be a builder at one time…maybe it was the baby toolboxes, maybe it was the little hard hats but for me, I was always fascinated with what was going on in the kitchens when the chefs were getting ready and walking in and smelling the food and as a young kid going into those sites, especially in the last stages of fit-out, there’s normally a crossover of builders and also chefs getting menu testing and prepping done and I would be out the back ad chefs would sling me some food. It always fascinated me, that side of things. That and I always liked to eat, I’m not going to lie.

I guess too, and I’m making a really big generalisation here, but often in European and especially Italian culture, food is a means of bringing people together.

The best way to describe it is that we always knew what day of the week it was by who was coming over to visit on the night. That was growing up as a kid with family here, there and everywhere and within throwing distance. You could throw a rock and hit a cousin somewhere around over a fence. It was always nuts. I think that’s what made food so special to me. Friday was fish night; Nonno and Nonna would always come over and eat fish with the family and watch football and we would have coffee at halftime with tiramisu. That was normal. When I went to school as a six year old, people didn’t understand. I would be saying, what do you mean you don’t do that? What’s fish ad chips on a Friday night? I didn’t understand it. I know what fish is on a Friday but what’s this fish and chips? We had it of course, but I could never understand why you’d have that then. We would have garfish or flat head or all these beautiful fish that re now really expensive and used to be just normal eating for us.

Then what was the step from being into the food and interested in what the chefs were doing to becoming a chef yourself?

When I started…I was never a good student, I will wholly admit that…If I was a teacher reflecting on me being a student, I couldn’t wait for the bell to ring and for him to be out, but that wasn’t my thing. The irony is that I just qualified being a trainer and an assessor. So from a bad student to a teacher, work that out.

But maybe that’s good because you have an idea of the students you need to look out for. I’m a French teacher, but I was a complete nerd at school, so I just don’t understand when students don’t want to learn French. It might be better to be an assessor who used to be a bit naughty.

I’m not really doing much assessing now. I’m a gun for hire for the next few months which is great and it’s great to be back on the decks cooking, but when I was doing some assessing, I was quite frank, and I guess that’s a refreshing approach. I found kids responded well to that, they knew I wasn’t going to tell them they were special, I was going to get them to where they needed to be, whether that was being a better server, making a better coffee or cutting a carrot better. 

Getting back to you as a student…

Yes, I was always having a great time with my mates and the teachers were wishing for the bell to ring. Then it came time to decide what I wanted to do and it came to the work experience time of year. I always worked at KFC or those places as a young kid but they never flaired my passion for food, they just provided money to be able to go out with my mates. But when we had to do work experience, there was a café opening up down the road from school and so I went in there and met a lovely guy called Steve and asked if I could do work experience there. They were still building and he said, You can tell we’re not open, but I needed it in a month’s time and he told me that would be their first week opening and if I wanted to come, I should come. So I went and cut some onions and made some salads and I think they did pizzas back then so I did some pizzas. After a week they said they liked me and I think they were supposed to give me $50 and he put something like $250 in my pocket and told me if I came back the following week I could have the same again. So I started washing dishes. Being around the food and the hustle and bustle and the pirates, as I like to refer to the back of house, all of them having fun and joking and laughing, but somehow professionally putting up nice food. I really liked that and wanted to do more. That’s where my inspiration grew and I wanted more. 

I started finding friends who had friends working in different kitchens. I was lucky enough to do a pop-up shift at a place called Café Latte in Malvern Road. This was back when Riccardo Momesso was still the head chef there. I met him there. Then about three months later I got a phone call from him randomly saying he was at Il Bacaro. I didn’t know what that was, I was 16 years old. He told me he had a job for me and I said, that’s wonderful, when do I start? He said tomorrow morning at 8 o’clock and I told him I already had a job. He said that I had two choices: I could come the next morning and have a job or don’t come tomorrow morning and you won’t have a job. That was literally that. Unfortunately I had to do the wrong thing by my then current employers and go to Il Bacaro, not knowing anything more than I had worked or this guy once  and I realised what he could do and I was lucky enough to be at Il Bacaro when they were charging. I stayed there for four years as a young apprentice. That’s where my career started.

What an amazing place to launch.

It was super lucky. Blind luck, right person, right time.

Yes and no, I feel like you still had to prove yourself to the right person.

Well…I think if I remember correctly, they got me to rinse the rock salt off because it was too salty…but I think I took it with a smile and they liked that. 

I read that you were a head chef by the age of 24. That’s quite a trajectory.

It was a super trajectory and then I started on the super highway, I suppose. I did Il Bacaro for quite some time then I followed Riccardo to SOS which was a little fine diner at Malvern central, which didn’t last too long unfortunately but did really good food. Then from there I went to Italy 1 and then Sarti. At Sarti I was CdP, then junior sous chef, then sous chef, then Riccardo left so I was head chef for a little bit, which was a really good taste and then I was offered to be a head chef at a really good place and I thought I could take that on and do it. But I think we all learned very quickly, 24 is too young to be a head chef.

Why do you say that?

I think being a sous chef is really easy because the head chef takes a lot of that responsibility, the grunt from the owners, the costings, the menu planning, the constant phone calls, so you think when you do that one or two days a week, or for a short space of time that it’s very easy, but it’s only when you become a head chef that you realise what it involves; it’s a job you take home with you. It was a great experience.

I guess you have to have also worked out what your leadership style is and that might be quite hard at 24.

Exactly. It is super difficult. I’m the first one to say that it was an amazing experience, but from there I knew I had to go back and learn and work harder. When you take a step back and grow and learn more about who you are and as you say, leadership style, so by the time I hit 27, I knew I was ready. I was at Tutte Benne then and I was lucky to really hit my straps.

Ok, so Tutte Benne, when did the tv show happen? I wasn’t really sure what that was all about.

That happened about two years into me being head chef at Tutte Benne. My partner at the time had overhauled my Facebook the week before and I got a random message asking if I wanted to open a restaurant. I had no idea what they were talking about so I asked to know more. It was a producer from Channel 7 and they were doing a new show and wanted to know if I was interested in applying. I asked what I had to do and I had to send a video of me and my partner telling us what you would do if you had your own restaurant and they needed it the following morning by 9am. So we got it done and they liked us. The interview process took about six months, they were really scrupulous. We got the job so I had to resign from Tutte Benne because I couldn’t have done both at the same time. The pop-up was a six-month tv show. Filming is pretty hardcore.

How does it work? Are you just going about your business and they film you or is it scripted?

There are things that are scripted and things that you just go about and do what you want. They have a story they want to play out. You have to go to weekly meetings about who scored what and you have to go to the other peoples’ restaurants. There’s a lot of running around.

Ah, so it was a competition?

Hell yeah. It was about who ran a restaurant the most efficiently and professionally and everything that’s involved with running a restaurant. The difference is you’ve got tv producers who don’t know how to run a restaurant asking you lots of questions over and over and there’s a camera in your face.

Did you have to have drama? Did you have to cry and so on?

Trust me. You didn’t need to create it, it was already there. I did catch them once turning my food delivery trucks away just to get a reaction. They didn’t like the response they got from me that day. But overall you don’t need to create drama, restaurants are hard places to work  and then with the cameras…drama was always going to be there.

Looking back on that experience, what did you take from that? Was it just an adventure?

It was an amazing experience, I will always say that. Was it hard work and did I collapse on the last day because I was physically exhausted? Yes, but did I have a lot of fun? Yes. Did I make a lot of friends? Yes. Did I learn a lot and work out that I can run a restaurant and if I can do it under that pressure I can do it by myself, like what I’m about to do now? Definitely. It taught me a lot.

I saw that you have 16K followers on your Instagram and that seems like a lot. Do you think you need a bit of personality to get ahead these days in the chef world?

I don’t want to come across as arrogant because I can be very brash and people mistake the two, but that’s not who I am, I’m just very honest and some people love it and some don’t like it at as much. The point is, when it comes to food, there are three houses in hospitality these days and whether the chefs and owners of the old world want to admit it or not, it’s the truth. You have the back of house, the front of house and the media house and the three have to work in synergy or it’s never going to succeed. You can cook some amazing food, but the fact is that unless people see it on their phones, they are not going. Word of mouth is amazing…for the stalwarts, but a new restaurant, it’s not going to happen. We have an abundance of food in Melbourne. 

Totally right.

Now tell me about Moonee Ponds. Moonee Ponds, to me, feels really far away.

W?here are you from?

Well I’m originally from Christchurch…

Ok, so a plane, a bus and a cab…

But I live in Abbotsford.

It is a bit of a drive, but Moonee Ponds is a bit of a hub to me. It has always been there. It’s Essendon’s…I don’t want to use a term like big sister or little sister, but they are family. Essendon has always been a hub for a long time. People in the north have always gravitated towards there and there have always been a lot of shops and places to eat. If you’re in Essendon, you are doing alright in life, it’s not cheap. Houses are expensive there. Moonee Ponds is up and coming but it’s already full of culture and full of life. You’ve got theatres, lots of food, down every little strip there are delis and every kind of food you want to eat, not to mention they’ve got one of the largest Italian populations in Melbourne.

I did not know that.

I was looking at the demographics the other week and I can’t list the exact order they go in but it’s right up there. So you’ve got all the old Italian migrant settlers whose families have grown up out that way and they’ve stayed out that way. I live in Glen Roy and Glen Roy is another hub that used to be very Italian and Greek. I have puppies and you walk down the street and you see fruit trees and fig trees hanging over everywhere. Olives, figs and lemons…you know if you see them, that you’re in a Mediterranean culture because that’s what they did…they came over and planted all the seeds.

That’s what I love about Moonee Ponds. You’ve got all that rich culture still there, so there are a lot of Italian restaurants there. I’ve nicknamed it little Italy. It’s packed with Italians and Italian food.

I’m going to have to change my ideas.

I would. It’s super cool and they have spent a lot of money revamping it into what it is now.

Ok, so now tell me about risotto. I’ve read a bit about risotto and people have conferences about risotto. There’s wet risotto and dry risotto. What’s your take?

For me, a wet risotto is the right risotto. I don’t understand a mountain of risotto. For me, that is so wrong. I’m so far in one corner and that’s my opinion. Risotto should flow like a wave. The term all’onda literally means a wave so when the risotto hits the page it should ‘sploosh’, like a wave. I don’t know how to describe it, but you see a wave hit the shoreline and then it recedes and you know it’s moving but it’s moving nice and slow, that’s what risotto should flow like, even when you take a spoon out, it should kind of close itself back over. But it shouldn’t be wet like soup. It’s complicated, that’s why it has a consistency that has its own technical term. That comes from a lot of things and that’s what I love about risotto; what grain you use, the way you cook it, how you prepare it, how much or which things do you add to it? Do you add duck which is rich in fats so when you work it into the risotto you don’t need a lot of butter and parmesan because that mixed with the starch becomes creamy, or do you make a seafood risotto that has to use a creamy grain, such as a carnaroli grain which is full of starch, so when you work the risotto really hard, you end up with a risotto that looks like you’ve added a lot of butter and parmesan, but really you have added nothing. It’s a real science.

Are you going to have all those different kinds of things going on in your menu?

Definitely. We are featuring three different types of grain and they are the three that are readily available in Australia because due to import rights, there are other grains out there that we can’t access. The ones we are focussing on are arborio, canaroli and vialone nano. They’re all very individual in what can be done to them. We’re very lucky that we can also get the reserve grains which are a bit more particular in their shape. That’s a very finicky sort of thing…I can see the difference but I understand that most people would not. For me, what you use and how you use it specifically is important. 

I sound like a crazy person, but for me, every grain has a use. I don’t understand why you would use carnaroli with pumpkin. For me that makes no sense. I would use vialone nano because you don’t need the big grains with the pumpkin because the pumpkin is creamy enough. Some chefs will say no, you use the other one, but from my experience, this is what works.

This is something that fascinates me about chefs now that I’ve had 200 conversations, the idea that you just know what goes and what works and it’s from experience, I get that, but I cook every day (clearly not like a chef) and I still don’t know what works. How do you know?

I’m going to be really shit and say that it IS from experience. I worked out that at my time at Tutte Benne that it was in the tens of thousands of risottos.

Yeah…I don’t do that many…

Nobody does. 

So then when it’s that volume then you can say, pumpkin doesn’t go with that grain…

You may make an argument to say it goes with the other one and I can see how you might say that, but for me it isn’t a good idea. I’m using that as an example.

Do they have to have wine in them?

No.

Should they ever have wine in them? Or some do and some don’t.

There we go (found on his phone)…52,560 risottos. Wine has its place, I will wholly agree that you should add wine to some risottos. There are risottos that I do with Nduja and the spiciness of the meat means that when I cook the rice off in the very first stage, when I’m toasting the rice in the pot, I actually hit it with a bit of white wine because I find that the evaporated white wine cuts through the acidity of it, but that’s just for me. In general I don’t put wine in my risotto.

So at base, what has to be in risotto?

Rice.

And then stock?

Yes. That’s it. Some people do onion. I don’t put in onion. I’ve found that it’s not necessary. If you can make a beautiful vegetable stock or a beautiful fish stock or meat stock…we used to have seven different stocks at Tutte Benne at any one time…if you can make the flavour in the stock, the rice is a sponge. It will absorb everything you give it. I don’t need to add onion. If I put onion in my stock why would I put onion in the rice base because then all it will taste of is onion. I was always an advocate for it until I stopped putting onion inside and when I stopped that, and that has come through a lot of trial and error over the last six months, I discovered that it is not necessary at all and the risotto tastes more like risotto.

And cheese?

Yes, definitely. Obviously not in a seafood risotto.

Oh. Obviously not.

Obviously not, no. But In an ordinary risotto, yes. I always finish my risottos with parmigiano Reggiano, it’s important that we use this one for the flavour that it brings, but there are some other beautiful aged grana padanos and stuff that can be a really great substitute.

So on the menu you’ll have three different grains?

Yes, so there will be three unique grains used in unique ways but we will always have six risottos on the menu. I’ve tussled with putting more on but I think six is elegant enough considering I want to change the weekly.

How many variations are there?

Thousands. 

Do you have to remain traditional?

You do and you don’t and I will. I think that Italy is already so rich in culture. I just got back from Italy and seeing what they are doing over there at the moment. When you go to a place like Christian e Manuel in Vercelli, where the two brothers running it are known for risotto, that’s what they do. They are the kings of risotto as far as I’m concerned. They’re doing a risotto with carbonara, which we would typically put as a pasta, but when you’re eating it, and this might be me because I prefer risotto, but I preferred the carbonara with the rice. So when you open up that portal, how many variations do you have of pasta? Why can’t we tackle them? I’m not saying I’ll get out a pasta book and copy them word for word, but I think it can be equally diverse.

Will you also have pasta?

Yes. We are working on a couple of different things at the moment. We’re making pasta out of risotto. It sounds confusing. It looks like pasta but it is made from rice. Rice is diverse. Think about how many things you can do with it; rice glass noodles, rice wine, so why can’t you make risotto wine? I’m not saying I am, but that’s where my head is at. When you start to look at risotto less as a grain or the hidden cousin or the black sheep of Italy…

Why is it the black sheep? Because it’s not as cool as pasta?

I think so. I think pasta has taken the limelight for way too long. That’s what Risi is all about as far as I’m concerned. It’s not making risi cool because I believe it always has been, it’s about getting it out there and showing everyone else that hey, you can have a whole meal, entrée through to dessert made from risotto if you want to and Risi will facilitate that.

Through to dessert?

Through to dessert.

Rice pudding?

No. What about tiramisu out of rice? Our signature dish which I have just finished working on is called Risimisu and it’s made from risotto, and it looks like tiramisu, The point is, we can take risotto and do whatever we want to it. Provided that you know where you’re going to push it and how, you can do a lot. I think that’s what draws me the most to risotto.

Obviously that’s an exciting project for you because you have to wait until March.

That’s fine. I’m enjoying it. I’m driving my fiancée insane because I’m cooking a lot of food at home and she says she has to go to the gym five nights a week just so you can cook. We’ve got it all going; kitchen aids, thermomixes, water baths and I am constantly driving the menu forward. Right now its spring and I’m seeing what’s out there and what’s cool and riding the seasons right now is great.

It’s interesting because so many of the chefs I’ve spoken to lately are talking about the seasons within seasons. I don’t think we can just talk about four any more.

I think that’s a haggard old outlook. Four menus a year? How sad is that? I have to cook the same food for three months? I would literally bash my head into a wall. If asparagus is no good, because asparagus as far as really good asparagus is concerned is only good for to or three weeks of the year, maybe four if it’s a bumper year…why would I cook it for the other two and a half months? because I don’t want to reprint a menu? I’m sorry, no. Why can’t we ride the seasons? That’s why we’ll be printing the menus every week at Risi. When you hit the markets every week like I do, you really get to see what’s abundantly available and you think, right, it’s that time of year, we can have that. 

I think it’s better for our bodies as well. I think we have lost sense of what’s right for our bodies because everything is available all the time but when lettuce and watermelon are naturally abundant, it’s at a time of year when we need to be more hydrated. If we could get more in tune with our body and the land, it would be better.

I talk to my chef friends about how in touch we are with the seasons now, like oh broad beans will be up soon, and we get excited. Being ultra-seasonal and coupling that with something that is a beautiful platform to work with such as risotto, I think that’s where it becomes a lot of fun.

So we’ve talked about you coming from experience and going with the products in season, do you also read cookbooks or look at Instagram or what do you do for inspiration?

My inspiration comes from everywhere, be it eating and I eat out a lot, which I really enjoy doing, and it doesn’t have to be fine dining, I think you can draw experience from eating down in China Town and seeing a combination you haven’t seen before to popping up in little Collins Street or Flinders Lane at a one hatted restaurant, it doesn’t matter. When I’m not doing that, I always have my head buried in a cookbook. I came back with quite a few of them that are in Italian so I’m sitting there reading them with the best Italian I can and Google Translate in the other hand. I’ve been scouring op shops lately for really old Italian books and you find them every now and then. You’d be amazed at the nuggets you can find when people don’t know what they have in their possession and I found this book from the fifties and it has all the regions of Italy broken down, so 25 different recipes from Napoli and it’s amazing. But most of my inspiration comes from feeding my brain with all that information and then having the opportunity to think about it.

Risi, Moonee Ponds