You can tell a lot about a chef by how they talk about repetition. For Aaron, it’s not tedious, it’s essential. He grew up in Perth, found his culinary footing in a small seafood kitchen, and went on to cook in some of London’s most intense and celebrated restaurants. Now heading up the kitchen at O’Connell’s Hotel in South Melbourne, Aaron brings with him the calm authority of someone who’s done the hard yards. Aaron’s career spans Michelin-starred restaurants, big-name mentors like Jason Atherton and Shane Osborn, and some of Melbourne’s best-known venues like Cumulous, Scott Pickett’s restaurants as well as Oakridge Winery. He still keeps recipe notebooks, mostly lists of ingredients, and draws inspiration from everywhere: books, produce, places, memory. And after all these years, he still genuinely loves being in the kitchen. That short, sharp burst of service? It’s where he feels most at home.
We’re sitting in O’Connell’s pub, which is a pub with a lot of history. Number one, it’s old in South Melbourne. But number two, it’s got a really big name for being a gastro pub, a pub where lots of famous culinary people have come through: Greg Malouf, Andrew McConnell.
That’s right. Adrian Richardson at some point.
Yes, and I had a wild talk to him before La Luna shut down. It is really great to speak to you and I came to the dinner a couple of weeks ago, which was really delicious. You spoke so well then about the food, which can be daunting in front of a room of people.
It’s NOT my natural habitat, that’s for sure.
No, and I know that nowadays chefs being perhaps forced to speak to media or speak in front of groups of people, it’s probably a new thing.
It’s always comfortable if there’s a pass in front of you, but when you step out from there, it becomes a little more daunting and uncomfortable.
Of course. Let’s start with talking about the food. It is a pub, but the food is described as elevated pub food. What does that mean?
Good question. My background isn’t in pubs. So, I’m trying to take what I’ve learned over a number of years and marry that into the pub setting. Pubs are a place that are everything to everyone. So it’s a hard one, but it’s just trying to pare back a little bit of what I’m used to and incorporate that into things that people expect in a pub.
I did wonder that, because I feel as though there must be pressure to have certain things on a pub menu. When you came here, this is your menu, where did you start?
When I started, as you say, I was directed that there were certain things that we couldn’t change. I looked at that and I thought, well we can’t change it but what we can do is maybe make it a little bit more interesting, freshen it up a little bit. We’re not trying to reinvent the wheel, maybe just rediscover it a little bit. Instead of doing a normal schnitzel with your cabbage salad, it would do a Holstein, we changed the fish and chips, instead of beer batter, were doing a crumbed fish and chips. It’s just taking the familiar elements and then just changing it up and making a little bit more interesting for us in the kitchen and also for the customers who are used to the norm.
We try and use the Josper throughout the menu from entrees, mains, desserts. Obviously, steaks play a big part of what we do, so that’s something we use it for, but then we’ve got some chestnuts on the menu in a dessert, so we’re roasting chestnuts in the Josper. Occasionally we’ll do some specials with some smoked elements, so it’s using the Josper in all of its stages. If you want to smoke something, you use it early in the morning when you’ve got the smoke and then even cooking things overnight; you can put up some whole potatoes or a pumpkin or something like that, because the residual heat is going to cook it through.
Aaron Brodie, O’Connell’s Hotel
You’ve got a Josper. Have you worked with Jospers before?
I haven’t. I’ve worked with lots of Hibachi grills and I’ve done quite a few events outside with woodfire cooking. Some of them have been very homemade. We did that did an event at Oakridge once and we had these big cast iron planter boxes that we took out and basically dragged in front of the restaurant filled with wood and we cooked a whole five course dinner over that. So having the Josper is new, but cooking with fire is not something that is entirely new.
It’s a different way of cooking, isn’t it, in terms of having to be more aware of how to maintain the temperature and do all those kinds of things. Is that different with a Josper again or is it similar?
Anytime you’re cooking with something that is a natural fuel requires a different attention to detail. It’s not just like turning on your gas hob or induction or electricity. You’re dealing with something that changes. If the wood is a little bit damp, if it’s dry, it’s going to change and obviously you need to maintain the fire. We’re open from 12 lunchtime right through till 9 o’clock at night. So, you need to be able to maintain the heat. so that you’re getting the same result.
What are you using?
I’m using ironbark.
I was speaking to some chefs the other day who are opening a place in the city in and they spoke about ironbark being really great because it’s consistent heat, but it doesn’t flavour the food too much.
It imparts a fairly mild flavour, but yeah, it does burn for a good amount of time and it’s consistent.
What are you using the Josper for on the menu?
We try and use the Josper throughout the menu from entrees, mains, desserts. Obviously, steaks play a big part of what we do, so that’s something we use it for, but then we’ve got some chestnuts on the menu in a dessert, so we’re roasting chestnuts in the Josper. Occasionally we’ll do some specials with some smoked elements, so it’s using the Josper in all of its stages. If you want to smoke something, you use it early in the morning when you’ve got the smoke and then even cooking things overnight; you can put up some whole potatoes or a pumpkin or something like that, because the residual heat is going to cook it through. Scallops, seafood, lend themselves really well to the Josper.
When you take on a new role like this, do you come in and just work with the existing menu for a start or have you pre-thought a menu? What’s the transition?
I’m probably not great with structure. I think the more I think about things sometimes the worse the result is. We came in and we worked with what we had originally, because of it being such a neighbourhood venue. The locals could probably be a little bit sensitive to change, but then saying that, I think the pub has gone through a lot of iterations over its life span. We were conscious of not upsetting people too much, but at the same time, we feel like they wanted something different, something new, something a bit more consistent. We looked at the classics and the things we couldn’t change and then everything else was up for grabs.
That’s great. And in terms of suppliers, I’m imagining that when you work in the Yarra Valley and a winery that you have lots of local suppliers around you, is that different in the city?
Yeah, it’s been a big change. The winery had a big garden, and we set some really strict parameters about what we would and wouldn’t use. Everything we used, the relationship we had was with people directly who were growing it or farming it. So, then coming back into the city and not having the luxury of walking out of the back door and going, oh zucchini is ready. tomatoes are ready, artichokes are ready. It’s been different, but I’ve been cooking longer than just the seven years I was at Oakridge. So it was just remembering what that was like before. We’re pretty close to South Melbourne markets as well. So even a bit of a stroll through there on the odd morning, not that it probably happens as much as I would like, but even just a 30 minute stroll to see what’s available or what’s good, it gets the mind working.
I guess then it’s about making those relationships with the suppliers to be able to trust what they suggest.
Yes. We have a really good relationship with Flinders Island and then there’s Red Coral Seafood who source a lot of seafood from down towards Wilson’s Prom. But, using seafood again after so long of only using rainbow trout, it’s been refreshing and single.
It is good you didn’t use seafood when you’re inland. I like that.
We have got it on the menu here, so it might be a bit of PTSD, I’ve got to have it. The seafood dishes that we have on the menu tend to be the popular ones, apart from steaks, obviously.
Everything’s a learning experience, right? You take the good, the bad, the indifferent, the ugly, and you try and mould that into who you want to be further on down the track. I loved working at the Subiaco Hotel. It was hard, but I learned a lot. I probably learned more what not to do. There wasn’t a lot of explaining about why you would do something. You learned things by watching and thinking, I don’t want to do that because I’ll to get in trouble.Quote goes here
Aaron Brodie, O’Connell’s Hotel
Seven years is a good length of time to spend in one place for a chef. I was speaking to someone the other night and it was in a hotel restaurant and the turnover in hotel restaurant has happened quite often. And I said, gosh, they seem to come and go quite quickly and the person replied, oh, have you ever met a chef? But I always like it when chefs stay in one place for a period of time. It feels like they value that place and are really investing in it and then you’re able to train people more consistently. You must have loved it to stay there for seven years.
There’s lots of elements that made it desirable, obviously being in a winery, you’re pretty much just working day shifts. I think we used to do maybe 10 or 15 nights a year, so that was good. When I first started there, we had Jo Barrett and Matt Stone running it and the culture and the people that were there, it just really worked. Even when they left, we kept the same the same team. I think there’s a couple of people when I left that had been there almost the entire time that I’d been there, so I think it’s probably a testament to those guys before. When I took over just being able to maintain the culture and the cuisine and all of those things is attractive to people. But throughout my whole career, I’ve had a pretty consistent journey. I did seven years at Oakridge and before that, it was five years with Scott Pickett, he’s a character, larger than life, he’s always on the go, so to do five years with Scott was good. Even before that when I was in London, I did one and two year stints, which was pretty good. Then even all the way back in Perth, when I was at the Subiaco Hotel, I was there for six years again. So, throughout my whole career, I’ve maintained fairly consistent lengths of time.
So, you grew up in Perth? And did you always know you wanted to be a chef?
Probably. Yeah, pretty early on. It’s just one of those things that I was comfortable doing. I played a lot of sport when I was younger and that whole team element, the repetitive nature of sport, I think is something that I enjoyed, and obviously you get that in the kitchen. I think a lot of people don’t like repetition, but at the same time, I think it’s good. It’s good because you can really learn and grow your craft.
A lot of people say when they first started, there was still their shouty chef mentality. Was that happening when you?
I’ve been pretty lucky. When I started my apprenticeship back when people actually did apprenticeships, I worked in the same venue for those four years, and it was a seafood restaurant. It wasn’t amazing. We had a really small team. It was in Fremantle, and it was actually the viewing platform when the Americas Cup was on. Not that I was that old when the Americas Cup was here. I didn’t experience that culture of shouting then, that came later. We had a really small team and I probably was put in a position where I had to be more responsible and be more organised than I would have normally, because we had such a small team. So, while I didn’t maybe learn a lot of great culinary techniques and things like that, it did teach me to be organised and probably a bit more mature than I otherwise would have been.
That’s interesting. Maybe that is the place to start with that and then the culinary technique comes later. When did that come for you?
After that, I went to the Subiaco Hotel, which was an institution at the time. That’s where that started to come in. The executive chef at the time was Ivan Mather, who was a bit of a culinary face, and Simon Brad-Burton, who was also there for the whole time. The place was big, busy, bustling. Thursday and Friday lunch was almost like a private members club because it was the same people week in, week out, month in, month out. That was where it happened. That’s where I got exposure to what was happening over in Victoria and New South Wales, because in the AHA Awards it was Best Restaurant Pub in Australia. I think we drew with Circa at the time, when Michael Lambie was the head chef there. I did six years there and that got me really interested and then from there, I was off to London.
Did that feel like the natural next step?
Perth is pretty small and it was probably even smaller then as far as restaurants go.
Was London a culture shock?
It definitely was; the hours and the intensity of it, but I wasn’t scared by it. It’s probably where I first experienced that aggressive, really intense kitchen and you definitely do become a bit of a product of your environment. But everything’s a learning experience, right? You take the good, the bad, the indifferent, the ugly, and you try and mould that into who you want to be further on down the track. I loved working at the Subiaco Hotel. It was hard, but I learned a lot. I probably learned more what not to do. There wasn’t a lot of explaining about why you would do something. You learned things by watching and thinking, I don’t want to do that because I’ll to get in trouble.
Where did you work in London?
I worked at Bibendum for a little while, which was in the Michelin building. It was a bit of a short stint, but it was a very classic environment, I did that for six months and I realised I wanted something more. I ended up at Maze with Jason Atherton for two years. I worked my up from chef de partie and finished as a sous chef. That was intense and it was good because it was so in the limelight. Obviously it was owned by Gordon Ramsay as well, so the first time you see him walk through the door, you’re just like, oh shit. But a lot of what his persona is, is for the TV. There was a time, I suppose, when he would have been pretty ugly to work for, but I suppose he was different then.
It seems like when he comes over here and hangs out with chiefs in the restaurant, he seems like he’s genuinely interested in people and food.
He’s made that his career, his life. It was intense. From there, I worked at Pied à Terre and L’Autre Pied with Shane Osborn, who is another Australian guy and that was a totally different environment altogether again. I think I found out later down a track that we were actually both from Perth. And I think I think we might have even gone to the same high school. I found all of that out later. That was intense as well. I did that for another two years between the two. I was sous chef of L’Autre Pied, which was the sister restaurant at the time, and was one Michelin star. That was about refining everything that I’d learnt for two years prior and doing in a venue that was a lot smaller, so you had the ability to have a bit more attention to detail and just learn how to work with people again.
When was your first head chef role?
I came back from London and went back to the Subiaco Hotel for a year, but then it was a bit too much of a sea change coming straight back from London. Then I ended up in Melbourne, at Cumulous for a year working for Andrew. It was great. There was lots of training around how to train people and management training and things like that, which I’d never done before. Cumulus was just a factory. It was good, tough at the time, because I think the head chef was Colin Wood, who’s gone off to make cheese now. We worked together back in Perth, at Subiaco Hotel. It was good. It was a good year, a tough year, and I learned a lot as far as the management side of it. From there, Scott Pickett for five years. When I first started with him, it was at the original Estelle, tiny little, I think it was 20 seats and outside was some umbrellas and the bar was the old bowling alley from the Northcote bowling alley, pink and grey tiles. I think it was about a year and then we turned it into Estelle Bistro. The chefs were the ones smashing all the tiles and getting that renovated. Estelle was a lot bigger and a different focus again. I did that for two years and then while we did that, we did the Australian Open every summer. That was a massive undertaking. That’s something I’d never, ever experienced in my life and probably not something that I’d put my hand up to go and do. It’s just such a big undertaking to go and do that for two weeks a year.
Was there a small kitchen there or was most of the prep done off site? How does it work?
The first year was before he did ESP, so that was challenging. They had St. Crispin as well and then obviously it had the kitchens at Melbourne Park. You did spread out. Lots of ferrying backwards and forwards every night trying to get through security who at times were not always helpful. Then the second year was when ESP was open, so they shut for two weeks when that was on, so we had the whole kitchen to use and it was a bit easier. It’s just different. Because it’s about the tennis, everyone wants to eat in 20 minutes. It doesn’t matter if they want one, two, or three courses, they all want to have it in 20 minutes.
It’s so crowded. It’s a fun vibe.
After that, we opened Pickett Deli at the markets, which was more of a cafe vibe. I did that for six months and then after that I didn’t want to cook breakfast, so I ended up at Oakridge.
What a journey.
I’m not young.
Lots of different experiences and lots of different chefs as well. I really like that with all of them, you’ve mentioned what you learned in different places. I think with probably any job, if you can keep that idea of learning all the time alive, as well as a degree of love for what you’re doing, then that’s probably what keeps you going.
Everyone says when you get older, what are you going to do, hey, how are you going to adapt to getting older? But I don’t know. I look at other parts of the world and you’ve got people that are like 70 and 80, not that I want to be 70 and 80 and still working in a kitchen, but you still see them doing what they do because they love it. So as long as I’m enjoying it, I like being in the kitchen. I like that short sharp rush of an hour or two or whatever it is and still being able to create and be hands on. I can’t see that changing soon.
Don’t be in such a hurry. I think everyone wants to create. But a lot of the time, people don’t know how to create because they don’t know the basics. So, just take the time. I know it’s hard because the world around you is so fast paced, and everyone’s always telling you that you need to get from A to B as fast as you can, but I think sometimes it’s good just to take a step back and actually learn a craft and absorb. You can work at 10 amazing places in five years, but how much do you actually really absorb and get the full experience? Take a step back, take the time.
Aaron Brodie, O’Connell’s Hotel
Where do you get your inspiration? I’ve read descriptions of you as being ‘produce led’. So obviously you get inspiration from the season and what produce there is. Do you also look through books or do you look online now? Where are you getting inspiration?
I don’t know. It’s just everything really. There’s so much available and it’s everywhere. You might look at it and think I don’t like that. But then you sit down and you reflect on it over a day or two and you take elements of what you’re seeing. I draw inspiration from the world around me.
Then do you write those ideas down or you just store them away?
I think I’ve got five or six recipe notebooks and occasionally I’ll look through them and they’re literally just a list of ingredients. So it takes a while to actually remember methods and there might be a little bit of trial and error. But most of it just gets locked away in the brain somewhere. Occasionally something will get jotted down. I have a fairly decent library at home that gets pulled out every now and again.
And do you like to cook at home?
It’s probably more just for sustenance. Both of me and my wife work full-time, so it’s a juggling act. Sometimes it’s more like, let’s go out.
And why not? That’s more inspiration as well. Well, with all that in mind, what would your advice be to a young person starting out as a chef?
Don’t be in such a hurry. I think everyone wants to create. But a lot of the time, people don’t know how to create because they don’t know the basics. So, just take the time. I know it’s hard because the world around you is so fast paced, and everyone’s always telling you that you need to get from A to B as fast as you can, but I think sometimes it’s good just to take a step back and actually learn a craft and absorb. You can work at 10 amazing places in five years, but how much do you actually really absorb and get the full experience? Take a step back, take the time.
O’Connell’s Hotel, 407 Coventry Street, South Melbourne