Andrea Rigodanza

Conversation with a chef: Hi, Andrea. Nice to meet you. It's lovely here and they have your gnocchi on the menu!

Andrea Rigodanza: It's one of the places that supplies my gnocchi.

How many places are there?

Probably 25, 30.

Oh, that's a lot.

All handmade. It's a big, big job. I started last year while I was executive chef in a restaurant in the city. It's the private restaurant across from the Supreme Court, for judges and lawyers only. I was a chef for them and it was Monday through Friday, just lunch and breakfast. I had a lot of free time. It was good because I was coming from years of working hard, so it was good to be on 38 hours. After six months I was bored. I used to work 56 hours, so I started making gnocchi and these guys were my first customers. And they have three cafes. One of them is close to my kitchen in West Footscray. This one here and one in Toorak.

So now you've been able to move away from your full-time job? And this is your full-time job?

Yes. I finished in April. The server here is from the same town I come from in Italy, which is weird. Vicenza. It's around 50 kilometres from Venice.

Okay. So lots of seafood?

A lot of seafood. We are just at the foot of the Dolomites. We have the Dolomites at the back of the town, so it's cold. The ocean is a 45 minute drive.

Is it a small town?

In Italy it's considered small. It's around 150,000 people.

How amazing to meet someone from home. Did you know her back there?

No, not at all. It happens quite often actually, that I meet people here and they're from my same town. The other day I met a person who is one of my customers. She has a cafe in Barwon Heads and she's from 20 minutes drive from my house in Italy. Another one of the judges at the Supreme Court, her house is a hundred metres away from my family restaurant in Vicenza. She knows the restaurant, my family knows the restaurant that they own.

I love that. So, you grew up with food?

Absolutely. My family had a restaurant for 36 years. The restaurant is 150 years old. It has been there from 1860. So, 170 years.

That's amazing, isn't it? I just feel like in Europe that's so possible, that kind of longevity in an establishment.

The thing is, until I was 20, I never cooked. Because my family had a restaurant. So I ate there, I didn't have to do anything. I didnt have to worry about cooking ever.

Was it regional food?

Yes. I started there when I was 21 because I always loved cooking. I never really had to do it. And when I was 21, a chef left my dads restaurant. So I went to work there with my grandfather and my uncle and my auntie. Because they were the kitchen team and my mum, my cousin, my grandmother, and my dad, are front of house. I started working there, because the food is very regional, we were just doing stuff from the Veneto region. It's kind of heavy food; slow cooked meat, all this nice stuff. But it was very small. I couldn't cook many things.

There wasn't a diverse range of things?

No, exactly. I went to cooking school after doing that. I did the opposite. I worked in my dad's restaurant and after I knew I needed to learn more. And I went to cooking school.

I reckon that's good though, because then you knew what you really needed to know as well. You had the basics.

It was really good because I was ahead of all the others in the school, so I already knew the basics. I could actually focus more on more important things at school, not having to worry about learning how to cut or stuff like that, because I already knew how to do it. After the school, I did an apprenticeship in a three Michelin star restaurant in Padua. Padua is another city in the Veneto region. I did that for three months. It was crazy. I was starting in the morning at nine and finishing at one, two p am at nine, like 15, 16 hours days.

What were you doing there? Were you on a section?

Yeah, look, because I was good at pastas because of my family restaurant, I was working in pasta. I mostly worked at pasta under the chef there because I was 22, so I was still like cook level.

I don't know how people can last beyond three months in places like that. I've just been watching, well everyone's watching The Bear.

I want to watch it, but I haven't yet.

It's very stressful. It's hard to watch because it really replicates that stress of the kitchen. I found season one hard to watch. Then season two was pretty beautiful and had these quite quiet times where they went off with each character and they spent time with actual chefs. And season three hasn't had a good review, but it's got that real angst in it again. So it is hard to watch. But the last episode, they have all these actual chefs together talking and it's amazing. I think maybe chefs are saying the kitchen is actually nothing like that. But I guess for an outsider looking in, it seems to represent an angle of what it might be.

I've seen some short videos about the TV show. I think it depends what restaurant you work in. I find here in Australia, thank God the culture and hospitality's a lot better than the way it is in Europe. In general here, chefs have a lifestyle, a good work life balance.The way people are treated here in Australia is a lot better than the way it is in Europe. So some parts of that TV show, I saw them back when I was working in the Michelin starItaly: extreme high pressure and long hours.

Not much pay?

Oh no. I wasn't paid. You don't get paid in Italy when you do an apprenticeship. I was doing 70, 80, 90 hours a week for zero.

Did you learn a lot?

What I learned there in three months was a lot, but it also made me not really like fine dining. I think it's a great experience. You learn a lot, but at the same time it's hard.

So what did you do after that?

After that I came to Australia.

What made you come here?

I was applying for jobs all around the world and a restaurant from Sydney contacted me saying, we are looking for a sous chef here. I wasn't a sous chef, but I said yes.

Oh, so you'd just done your apprenticeship?

Yes, but it was an Italian restaurant, so the knowledge that you have as an Italian in pasta cooking, it's pretty high anyway, even if you're not a chef. I said, I can come, I have the experience, you know, lie a little bit.

They hadn't met you?

He just said, you're hired and organised the Visa. My family was like, oh my god. I was living at home. And in two weeks I had left. That was 2016. So it's nearly nine years ago.

Was it a culture shock when you arrived in Sydney?

Yes. It was weird because I came to Australia by myself. It was a very quick decision. I didn't do any research on how things were. And my English was very bad. Most Italians, when they arrive here, we have the very basic level that we learned in Italy, it's pretty low. I couldn't talk for like months and it was like pretty hard.

I also feel like lots of Italians, when they come here, they hang out with other Italians. And work in Italian restaurants.

That's the problem. Exactly. That's what I did. You hang out with Italians, you work in Italian restaurants because it's the easy choice. After I met my girlfriend, from there I started learning and speaking English a lot better. But the thing is, the first meal I cooked for her was gnocchi. She was a customer in the restaurant I was in. So that's why I also like gnocchi. I learned from my grandmother, my mum, my family's restaurant and I made it for her. It's something that we always used to make at home. That's why I had this passion for gnocchi and why I started a business based on gnocchi.

I love that. Are there different kinds of gnocchi?

I make any kind of variation. Mostly potato because they're vegan and for most restaurants an easy choice. Its safe for everyone. There are so many varieties of gnocchi. Each region, because it's so different from the landscape, the food that you can get, they all have a different variety of making gnocchi. From my region, it's classic potato gnocchi. From the mountains you get maybe the ricotta ones. In Tuscany you get gnudi which are ricotta and spinach and they are shaped differently. In the south of Italy, in Sicily you get cavatelli, it's a pasta, but it's similar to gnocchi because it's made from semolina and rolled in a similar way to gnocchi. In Sardinia, it's gnocchi sardi. So every region has its own variety of making gnocchi.

But the thing is that now you think about gnocchi, what do you think? Soft. Pillowy texture and everything. The word gnocchi comes from the nocca , which means knuckle in Italian. Be before they discovered America, there were no potatoes in Europe. The gnocchi were made with just flour and water, like the ones they make in Sardinia. And they were hard like a knuckle. So that's where they started. They were called gnocchi because they're hard is like a knuckle. And after they developed them with the potato, they became soft.

I wonder why they started adding the potato? Experimenting and then it worked. Isnt it interesting though? Because sometimes people complain about innovation and say the original's always better, but not always.

In this case, it improved a lot.

And what about the different sauces that go with gnocchi. Is that regional as well?

Yes because in the south it's warmer. In the north it's cooler. In the north it's very easy to find a slow cooked meat, like an osso bucco, or something heavy with butter and a lot of cheese because it's cold and you want something that actually gives you energy and keeps you warm. But in the south, for example, it's a lot more like fresh with a lot of fresh vegetables. Gnocchi alla sorrentina from Naples is with tomato, mozzarella, and basil, a lot of seafood from Sicily. Now it's a bit everything. Now gnocchi has become like a pasta shape and you just make it with whatever you want.Do you want to get some to share?

Yes!

I'd love to try it as well because I want to see how they make it with their sauce and stuff.How did you start this Conversation with a chef?

I had a friend in Christchurch who was a chef. Nicky had worked in London and Australia and we would hang out, but she would talk about food and about the hospitality industry and I found it really fascinating. I always thought one day I'm going to do something called Conversation with a chef. I started podcasting in 2016. Its a hobby. But I love it. And I think now more than ever, my hope for it is that it's about celebrating hospitality. It's nice to highlight people that are doing what they're passionate about.

Well, it's also something that people who don't work in hospitality don't really have an idea of what goes on behind in the kitchen, what happens. You watch the TV show The Bear, and think, that's crazy. For some people it's a shock. They dont think its possible. In a lot of places it's like that.

It must be hard in this current climate. It's great if people can still love what they're doing. But especially if you're a head chef and you're an owner to be worrying about all the bills and the paying staff properly. And even if youre using great produce from Gippsland, what if the harvest isn't as good? What do you? I've heard that in winter it is quite hard for vegetables. So if you're relying on that to change your menu seasonally there are lots of challenges.

There is a lot of thinking. A lot of work. For example, something simple like tomatoes, the price of tomatoes: canned tomatoes went up a lot over the past couple of years. It was a lot cheaper a couple of years ago. Now it's getting more expensive. For me, for example, I'm still making a baked gnocchi as a take home meal. It's gnocchi with sauce, cheese to just put in the oven. Because I'm a producer, I need to make the label, the percentage made in Australia all those things. Two, three months ago I printed all my labels and my supplier of tomatoes said, we can't get it anymore from Italy. So I had to redo all my labels. I had to throw them away. I had to make all new labels with the new details. It's hard. Like olive oil at the moment.

I was going to ask you about olive oil. What's happening with olive oil?

I'm not super, super knowledgeable, but it's happening in Europe. They really had a bad harvest because of the weather. And same here in Australia. The amount that they produce is so low and the request is so high that they can just pump up the price. People still need olive oil. Imagine in just an Italian restaurant, how much olive oil you go through. In some restaurants we were going through 20 litres a week. You were buying the oil bulk for $200 and now it's like $300.

It's all well and good that you are a chef and you make gnocchi. But you had to build the business side of things as well. So you've got a kitchen that you work out of? But how do you start a business?

Yes. Look, it's not really easy. It's not impossible. I came from another country. And I managed to make it in Australia, it's pretty easy bureaucracy. It's pretty simple. In Italy it would be nearly impossible to do what I did here. But for a kitchen like mine, a production business, you need of course all the council regulations. You get the license from them, open your company, get the spot. Because I'm a producer, I'm a manufacturer, I need to get specific documents from a food expert who comes and goes through a booklet of rules that I have to follow. It's the only probably expensive thing to start the manufacturing business. I think the most difficult thing is finding customers. Because starting it's not that difficult. It's more about getting out there, people knowing you. And also in this climate at the moment, people are trying to save money. When I started, I found it easier to find customers last year than this year because restaurants were still quite busy. So they were happy to outsource. Gnocchi isnt difficult. It's something that most Italians can make. It is just time consuming and maybe not easy to get a consistent product in a kitchen. There are maybe five, six chefs in a kitchen. Everyone makes it. They're never the same. When restaurants were very busy, they outsourced that so the chefs could focus on something else. But now they have the same chefs, it's less busy so they don't have to make as much as product or preparation, so they have the time to make gnocchi as well.I do everything. I'm doing the deliveries. I'm making the gnocchi.

Doing social media.

No, I'm not social media. That's the only thing I don't know how to do.

Your videos are great. That brisket one is superb.

Oh, thank you. That's my girlfriend. She does all the social media and the website. That's her expertise. Eating, and doing that.

Because that's another aspect, isn't it? You do need to do the social media game and you have to tell a story.

Why would someone buy my gnocchi instead of buying them from someone else? Because they're handmade. They're made from like an Italian who knows how to make them. It's artisan.

And is it in delis as well?

I sell it to a couple of delis. I mostly do wholesale to restaurants.

What about the take home baked gnocchi?

That's directly from me. Usually what I do for that, I just do deliveries on the weekend.

How much gnocchi do you make in a day? What's the process?

Yesterday I did my record in gnocchi making. In one day, I made 110 kilos by hand.

Wow. How long does that take?

It took me six hours, so around 10 kilos every half an hour.

How many gnocchi in a kilo?

I'd say each gnocchi is 8 to 10 grams, so it could be a hundred gnocchi in one kilo. So it's lot of gnocchi.I cook the potatoes, mash them, make the dough. And after I start rolling them, I blanche them so they don't break and they're easy for restaurants to manage and work with. I portion them and after I just do the deliveries. Yesterday I made gnocchi and today I did the deliveries before coming here. And it's all handmade, so it takes time.

It's difficult to train someone, not to make gnocchi because to make gnocchi is pretty simple. I do classes. Every month I do classes. I see people that come there, they have never made gnocchi before and they can actually make them. It's more about making a quantity and making them consistently. You need to make it kilos and kilos. That's the hard part.

What's the best way to cook gnocchi?

Boil them.

What about the pan frying?

I love pan frying. I had never seen it in Italy. When I came here I thought, what is this? I really love it. But you still need to boil them first. You need to cook the flour. The potatoes are already cooked. But you need to cook the flour before, otherwise it's not really the best.

Were you still making gnocchi in your sleep last night after that huge quantity?

No, and I don't eat gnocchi anymore. I can't stand it anymore. That's the negative. Even my girlfriend. Before we were making it once every couple of weeks. So it was special. But now Im making it every day, please stop.

But you don't regret making a decision to go into gnocchi?

No, look, I still enjoy it.

And clearly you're still doing some cooking for yourself.

Other things. I enjoy cooking more now. I don't do it too much because I'm busy. But the thing with chefs, most chefs they work all day in a kitchen, they cook all day, they get home, they don't want to cook.

Gnocchi by Rigo