Ben John

Hi, Ben, it’s lovely to talk to you. I just walked in off the street, and it’s really beautiful. There’s so much to look at. It feels really arty and relaxed, and the music’s very zen, Hotel Costes. 

Yes, it’s a little bit different to your standard hotel, I think. Right there in that sentence: it’s different to the standard. StandardX has got quite a nice design flow to it, and I think it suits Fitzroy quite well. You can walk in here and it doesn’t feel like you’re walking into a hotel. 

No, that’s right. You can look across the road, and there’s amazing street art on the wall. How long have you been here? 

I came on board, probably about four months ago, at the start of the pop up with Shannon. Once the pop-up ended, I took over. 

Tell me about Bistro X, what’s the vibe? 

We want it to be a really friendly neighbourhood Bistro. Unlike the French roots that Shannon focussed on, we’re still going with those nice French roots at the beginning, but then we want it to just be a little bit more approachable, where I think Melbourne being so multicultural, you have that nice approach to food where you might see a little bit of Middle Eastern flavours. You can see some ingredients coming from Asian cuisine or American or French or anything, really. Australian cuisine now is relaxed in the sense that you can put a little bit of everything as long as you’re focussing on the ingredient and using suppliers that you trust. It’s just friendly. It’s approachable, it’s fun. You can come with a partner or a friend or date an anniversary or just a good night out before a movie. I think it can be anything like that. 

When you come in and it’s carte blanche and you can create a menu, where do you start? 

You’ve got to start with the supplier, right? The supplier and the season for me. I’ve been in Melbourne now since 2014. I came over from New Zealand, and I think for a long time, I’ve always used the same suppliers, and you start to become more than just a supplier-chef relationship, you know them by name, you know their family, you know, their wife and you really build a little bit more of a connection. You get to go to their work and see where they get the produce or who the farmer is. Once you’ve got that, I don’t really think it matters where you are or what type of restaurant you’re opening up, as long as you go to the people that you trust for the ingredients, then you’ve already got your base to open up a great restaurant. 

Is it hard to get those suppliers? Do you have to prove yourself to them? A lot of great restaurants use those top tier suppliers and there can only be so many veggies? 

They’re pretty approachable. A lot of them, some people might not know about. For example, we just had a really incredible asparagus season, the peak asparagus season finishes now. But most people go to the vegetable market or get it from the standard supplier, not knowing that there’s certain people who only grow asparagus. Like John Hobson and his wife, Pam. They’ve got a little farm down in Pakenham, and they purely just grow asparagus and baby sweet corn. When you get those suppliers and you make good friends and you look after them, you only go to them and drive to the market and pick it up by hand. You know how the season’s going, they’re struggling, they’ve got a lot or if it’s going to slow down and I think their approach is, they can serve everyone, but they might not deliver it to your doorstep. You’re going to go to them. It could be a little bit more difficult at times, but I think that’s the fun of it. 

Are you able to change the menu often then? 

Yes, of course. 

Because it feels like that’s a luxury in hotels, although I know that’s changing. I know that hotels, especially in Melbourne, are taking on that more restaurant approach, aren’t they? 

You have to. Obviously, you’ve got to be careful these days with the type of menu that you create. It can still be hyper-seasonal, but at the same time, match a demographic and the people are around. But as long as you’re following the things that are in season and the produce that’s good, it’s going to be cheaper that way anyhow. 

You’ve got to start with the supplier, right? The supplier and the season for me. I’ve been in Melbourne now since 2014. I came over from New Zealand, and I think for a long time, I’ve always used the same suppliers, and you start to become more than just a supplier-chef relationship, you know them by name, you know their family, you know, their wife and you really build a little bit more of a connection. You get to go to their work and see where they get the produce or who the farmer is. Once you’ve got that, I don’t really think it matters where you are or what type of restaurant you’re opening up, as long as you go to the people that you trust for the ingredients, then you’ve already got your base to open up a great restaurant. 

Ben John, Bistro X

Say I come in here on date night, what would be the best way for me to appreciate your menu? Are there smaller snacks and things, and then do we work through? 

We’ve got a couple of little snacks to start. Then the entree part of the menu is pretty open to sharing. A lot of the dishes, for example, the prawn cocktail or the duck liver tartlets, octopus, things like that, they’re very easy to share. So you don’t feel like you’re kind of getting into that route where you’re going to be getting individual dishes. Then when it comes down to the mains, that’s also quite approachable to either have something of your own or share. That’s what I want to focus on in here. 

I’m sure they all stand out, but what’s an example of a couple of the mains here? 

I try to use one of each type of protein, especially in a hotel setting. You have to be a little bit broader, I suppose, of your menu as well, especially because you might have people coming from overseas. The chicken is fantastic. You don’t often see chicken too much on a menu. It’s often overshadowed by things like the beautiful beef and pork and stuff like that. We do a lovely half roast chicken with sauce romesco and crispy kale, which is delicious. Then we have a few more high-end things. We’ve got some beautiful Denver, which is from David Blackmore. Denver is a cut that you don’t see too often. Your classic restaurants often use scotch, or eye fillet. 

Where is the Denver cut from? 

Denver is part of the chuck. When you get the very large chuck, you generally find about five or six different muscles in there. When you break that all down and right in the centre, you get some really beautiful Denver. It’s got some lovely marbling, it cooks up beautifully and is similar to a bavette, which is a sirloin. We just serve that with peppercorn sauce. It’s absolutely delicious, and then all the other trims we can use for our burgers or making pastrami. It’s a great cut, very versatile. 

In terms of desserts, do you have a pastry chef? 

Yes, we have a pastry chef. My favourite dessert is the tarte tatin. I’ve had a tarte tatin on my menu for as long as I can remember now. I’ve done it with all kinds of fruit. But we just do a really nice pear tarte tatin here. It’s a challenge. It’s a big dessert. You definitely want to have it to share between people. Every now and then you get the person who thinks they can tackle one by themselves and more often not, you can’t. But it’s delicious; lots of caramel, lots of ice cream. That pastry on the top is just really nice balance between that crispy and chewy toffee-like lid. It’s fantastic. 

Tarte Tatin has that great the story of it being a mistake, where someone dropped an apple tarte on the floor so then they served it upside down. Whether that’s true or not, I’m not sure, but it’s one of those things that so delicious and it supposedly came from a mistake, like champagne. We need to embrace the errors. Do you do room service as well? 

Yes, we do room service. 

Does that tend to be a bit more comfort food? 

Room service will go down the line of doing a really good steak sandwich or a Wagyu Burger or pastrami sandwich, things that are a little bit easier to just take them to your room and enjoy. The rooms upstairs aren’t designed for room service. Unlike your traditional hotel, you might not have a large table or a balcony. The rooms up there are a little bit more simplistic in the approach. We don’t really want someone to order a ribeye where they need cutlery. We want to have to be able to bring up a bag, and you’ve got a really nice burger, a sandwich, or something like that, a simple salad. That’s going to be easier to have up in your room, but the idea is to get them to come downstairs. 

Do you have a sense of the ratio of people dining who are staying here to the people who are not staying here? 

We do well with people coming from the outside. Even for breakfast, I’d say we’re capturing around about like 45% of the guests that are in the hotel. Then the rest will come from outside. There is a lot of that on the weekend when the morning market is on. That helps a lot. Obviously, a lot of people see the restaurant is full and they come on in and give it a try, which is great. Often when you’re walking by another hotel, they’re quite difficult to see into. Here we are on ground level with wide open windows. You don’t really feel like you’re walking into a hotel, you’re getting people seeing it from off the street and people are sitting at the window sill, you’re getting a DJ playing in the corner. 

I feel like sometimes in hotels, you’re not sure if you’re allowed to go in because you wonder it’s just for people staying here. And is the hotel busy? 

Yes, the hotel’s really busy, which is great. 

There’s heaps of hotels opening, so it’s good to know that there’s good competition, but that they’re sharing the load. This will be a funky place for someone to come and stay from out of town. 

Definitely. It’s a great place. You’re so close to everything. 

Is this your first hotel? 

I actually started in hotels. My very first kitchen job was at the Hilton, way back in the day. That’s where I did my apprenticeship in Auckland. I was there for about five years before I came over to Australia. I haven’t done a hotel again until now. 

Is the story correct that you wanted to work at Vue de Monde, and you said if you got the job, you’d move? 

Pretty much. I came over for a concert. I’d only just graduated my apprenticeship about a year, so I was still pretty green. Coming from Auckland, back then in 2013, very early 2014, you have the same maybe three or four restaurants that dominated the scene for as long as I knew, so, coming into Melbourne, it was just, far out, there’s a restaurant on every corner and they’re all amazing. I must have spent my life savings in about a week, wining and dining every day. I went to Vu de Monde and it blew my mind. I think I was sitting there at the end and had my CV on me and I said, if I moved over, could I get a job, and the chef said, if you move over, you’ve got a job here ready for you. So within about 2 and a half weeks, that was it. 

That’s amazing. Obviously your CV was impressive, but there must be something about you, because not everyone could do that, right? 

Definitely. You could. It’s tough now. You see a lot of resumes and applications for a job through SEEK. Gone are the days where someone comes into a restaurant first and they sit in the dining room, they have the meal, they see what the chef and restaurant are about and then actually walk up to them in person, give them the CV and say, I’ll move my life over for you. If someone said that to me, I’m like, okay, great. 

Clearly you’re passionate. 

Well, yeah, right? If you have a young chef giving you 100%, you give them 100% back. I say I was lucky, but at the same time, I just put in the work and showed that I was interested, and I think if anybody does it in any kitchen, you’ll go far. 

What position were you when you started at Vue de Monde? 

I was a chef de partie when I came in. 

I feel like you have been a head chef in some really top restaurants since then. 

I left Vue de Monde after about three years, did some travelling, and then when I came back, I was the head chef at Vue de Monde in the events kitchen. That was that was quite fun. When I left there, I ended up in Omnia. I was head chef at Omnia for a while, and then I also did quite a few projects with a guy called James Cornwall at Tenable Dining. We had things like Bonny, Young Hearts, Seville Estate, which were all really great passion projects. I finally ended up at Pure South Dining. 

They’re all very high-level places that you’ve worked in and led. And they’re very exacting. How do you see your role as a leader in those kinds of kitchen? 

Obviously, we’re focussing on the restaurant. We want to make sure people are having a great experience and that they’re enjoying themselves. People now know the difference between what a good meal is and what an experience is. That’s the first part. The second part for me being a leader is really about the next generation of chefs. I’m very big on trying to make it a place where you enjoy coming to work, you’re interested, that the chef there is still the first person in the kitchen and the last to leave, that they’re just as passionate as you are. We are showing the younger generation that hospitality is still amazing. It’s a great place to be. It’s fun, it’s bright, it’s great energy in the kitchen. Then you can come into work, you’re happy, and you go home, and you’re still buzzing after your service. That’s really important to me, because I think hospitality is still very much alive. 

You were saying before we started that you’re working on Christmas Day, and you’ve possibly only had two Christmases off since you began life as a chef. That must be hard. I feel I hear a lot, and no disrespect to younger generations that it’s harder to convince people to do those kinds of hours and to be here for those special occasions and things. Is that your experience? Do you have to convince people to stay and work? 

For example, this year none of my team’s working any of the public holidays: Christmas, New Year’s, the Boxing Day. They get to have it off and I’ll work it, take one for the team. I want to let my staff enjoy the breaks and I’ll continue doing the hard yards. But it’s never really down to convincing someone to do something. If we have to convince someone to do a shift, then I think we’re already losing the battle. Even when I said, hey, guys, all good, you guys enjoy Christmas, I’ll take care of it, nearly my whole team was like, no, no, no, I can work and I’ll come in. They want to work. They want to do it. They want to put up their hand instead of just thinking, Jackpot, see you later. 

When you mentioned thinking about the next generation, and what you do here with breaking down meat, a lot of places will say that because of changes in the labour law and so on, that it costs money and that whole teaching aspect is quite hard to do now and it all takes time, and so it’s easier to get in already broken down meat and filleted fish. What are your thoughts around that? 

Yes, it’s difficult to find time in the day now. Obviously, shifts are shorter, the workload is less. That’s a great thing. Obviously, back in the day, chefs worked a lot of hours, and now they’re working normal hours, an eight-hour shift and doubles are rare. So, from a training perspective, there may be less time in the day to do proper whole butchery or filleting of fish, but for me I just make time. We don’t order anything pre-portioned. All of the fish always comes in whole and when it comes time to fillet a fish, I just say, all right, guys, I’m filleting ocean trout. Anyone not seen an ocean trout before? No, Chef, I haven’t. Okay, come over here. Let’s just quickly stop what you’re doing, show them how to break down an ocean trout, even if it’s not on their section. You have to know, you have to see, and then eventually it’ll be their turn to break one down. So anything like that, the butchery we talked about before, getting in the truck to get Denver, we use it to make some of the beautiful burgers. Obviously, chuck meat is great for burgers. We get pastrami out of it. We are showing them different muscle groups, how are you going to treat that with cooking? Some are great for searing; some are better for braising. You have to understand the process of cooking, and that’s really important to me. That’s always how I was taught at a young age: how to make a stock from scratch, how to make a proper sauce, how to lay a flavour. If we skip all those processes, then we’re not really a chef anymore, we’re just glorified cooks following a recipe. You’ll hear me saying something in the kitchen a lot of times: being a chef is so much more than just following a recipe or looking at a prep list. There’s a lot of layers to it. 

In terms of all the different possibilities of on the menu here because of the kind of city that Melbourne is, how do you learn about new styles of cooking or different cuisines? Are you reading? Are you looking online? 

Online now is quite good. The vast majority of my friend group are all chefs. We’re often talking about where people have been out that’s good recently? When I was young, every time I got my pay cheque, I’d think, great, where can I go? Obviously, it is a little bit more difficult now, but, now it’ll be looking at Instagram, what other chefs are doing, what are some of the new techniques that people are using. What seems to be things now that people are interested in. What are the trends? Sometimes you almost see good classical cooking coming back to be a new trend of like what’s popular again, compared to your fast, easy stuff. I’ll definitely be looking at Instagram a lot, which is a great tool, whereas back in the day, you’d see me sitting in the library, going through cookbooks and taking down notes. The internet’s a great tool to see what everyone’s up to and seeing it live. 

Absolutely. Obviously I am just a very basic home cook. But I feel like I’ve used the internet so much lately, when I’ve got so many cookbooks. But someone just gifted me the Ottolenghi Comfort book and I’ve cooked five things out of it in the past two weeks and they have all been great. It is actually the best cookbook I’ve ever been given. 

That’s how you know it’s a good cookbook; you can actually open it up and just cook something from it. Even with books back in the day, they’re great to get excited about and look at things, but half the ingredients you couldn’t even access. 

Where did it all start for you? Obviously, Auckland, but did you always know you wanted to be a chef? 

I think probably when I was 14 years old, I decided, yep, I want to be a chef, that’s what I want to do. I always grew up around cooking. My mum is a fantastic cook and as long as I can remember, we always had homestays. We’d often have people from all over the world. My mum would always say to them, please, you’re going to cook your favourite home dish. So, when I was six, seven, I was already using chopsticks and trying things like kimchi and squid pancakes or something from Peru, or different pastas or watching someone make sushi. I liked that so much. I like food, so I was always eating. It has always interested me. I got a little bit competitive with my brother at some stages. He’s also an incredible cook. He went down the route of tattooing, but I still think to this day that if he was a chef, it’d be up there. It was some of the best. He can really pull out some great dishes. I still remember when I was young trying to make better omelettes than him all the time. That was where the competitiveness started. Then I’d go to school and have the food class, and I had to put up a better dish from everyone else. I wanted to make the nicest dish in the class or I’d make it a bit different and show off and I just stuck with that mentality the whole time: I’m going to be better. I’ve got to do better, I’ve got to learn more, and that hunger never stopped. 

I guess then, in terms of ambition and success, what does that mean to you now? Do you need the accolades? Do you need to have top jobs and great reviews? Or is it about getting a balance and still enjoying it? 

I think balance is the most important thing. Life to me, is about living. You’ve got to enjoy it, you’ve got to have a good work-life balance. I’m married, so a good job for me is having time with my partner and then being grounded and having time for myself. Obviously, a lot of the time when I was young, I sacrificed my life for my career, and I definitely don’t regret that, it got me to some amazing places. I think that’s important when you’re young, but then as you start to develop those skills and your own leadership roles, it’s important to find that balance between leading a business to being successful, but at the same time leading yourself to being successful. As long as I’ve got time to get out on the road and go for a nice big bike ride and keep fit and healthy, then I’m coming to work and I’m fulfilled and I’m happy. 

This is a similar question, but maybe from the other side, I usually ask, given all your experience, what would your advice be to young people starting out? 

Be hungry. Come in wide eyed, full of questions. If someone comes in and they give 100%, the right person gives 200% back. In this day and age of cooking now, could not ask anything more than someone who’s just passionate, and that they want it. If you put in the work and you’re asking questions, you’re doing research, you’re tasting food, it’s still very easy to go far in a limited time frame. You have to put in the work and show the energy, and the rest will just happen. 

Bistro X at The StandardX, 419 Fitzroy Street, Fitzroy