Georgios Smyrnios

Hi George. It is so lovely here. You've only been here this year, is that right?

One and a half years.

Oh, one and a half years already!

We leased the place, and we changed it a little bit. We changed the concept and it's going well.

I see you're already on the list of best sangas in Melbourne. So, congratulations.

Thank you so much. That happened before we had been here a year. They tried the truffled cheese. I think it's one of the top 10 because it's probably not very common.

Tell me, what's in that sandwich?

We use three different types of cheese, a little bit of truffle mustard, and pepper, but they're all very good quality. The bread is very good. The butter that we use is very good and from Australia.

What kind of cheese?

Gruyere, mozzarella and, cheddar.

Oh, interesting. Did you have to experiment with different combinations to come up with that trilogy?

Yes. It took long time, maybe three months to make it perfect. When you cut it, it has to be stretchy and not too cheesy, you know, to be pleasant, less truffle, more mustard, more pepper, just to accomplish the whole 'wow' mix. It took time. It was the same for everything, for the tuna melt, it took a long time, for the deli sandwich, for the chicken, everything.If you saw the picture of the first one, the first chicken, and now, it's totally different. It's way better.

I read in that article, they mentioned that Melbourne was really big on burgers for a long time, but there's only so much you can do with the brioche bun, the patty, and some cheese. What is the secret, then, to a really good sandwich? What does a really good sandwich have to have?

First of all, you need the right bread? Every filling is different. Every fillling is a hundred per cent different. So you need the right bread, you need the right ingredients and the right amount, and the most important, the right toaster, because our toaster costs two and a half thousand dollars. It is a ceramic toaster and it doesnt squash the sandwich. You need that look as well to be square, with volume, so it looks nice. Also, imagine when you have a bite, for example, and it's so small, it changes the texture and your experience. So definitely you need a good toaster. I would recommend that to anyone that is a deli or a sandwich shop, you need to have the right toaster. You need to find the right temperature, the time. It needs the right time. Because if you toast it for four minutes, for example, at a very high temperature, it is going to be burned, but not warm inside. All those details, and the right ingredients. It's not easy. Everyone thinks, ah, it's, a sandwich shop. You don't need much preparation, or you need much knowledge. You need common sense. You need to use your senses all the time. It's not easy.

And do you change the fillings?

So now we have the winter menu. From next week, we're not going to do the deli sandwich anymore, the deli is like a continental. You know, the Italian Continental with sliced meats and cheese. We use mustard and chimichurri. That is very nice for summer, its fresh. We don't toast the bread. Now we are doing the Reuben, with pastrami, which is unbelievablely good.

I saw your photo of Katz's Deli up there.

Have you been?

I have been.

We do the same, the Reuben. But they have been doing their own pastrami for many years. And it's quite thick. Some people say to me, it is good, it has a good reputation, you go for the brand as well, not just for the sandwich, but it is quite big.

It's huge. There's a lot of meat as well.

They slice it by hand, not a slicer. So they have professional cutters. And it's quite thick. It's very thick because you can't have that thinness. I would love to go and try, but from comments and from feedback that most of the people that said to me, like, it's okay, but it's not the best sandwich in the planet.

No. But it's a cool atmosphere. And everyone thinks of when Harry met Sally.

Most of the time people choose something with their emotions. You sell your story and your beliefs and then people follow, it's not just a product.

That's very true. When I first read about you, and Raphs Deli, I was thinking there was obviously someone called Raph, but it's because it's on the corner of Raphael Street and Gipps Street. That's a good idea.

We had an agency called Electric Sunday. And they did the brand identity. Eden came with many concepts; red and red and white. Another one was yellow with white. He had an idea for a name, Billion Deli with gold, green and white. But I said to him, I don't think that suits Abbotsford. I wanted it to be not about me, not about anyone, but about the community, about Abbotsford. And then he came with a green, white and timber. Which I think matches Abbotsford. And then let's embrace the address as well, let's give value to Abbotsford.

I think so. It's a gentrified suburb, but originally it was working class. And I feel like you want to keep it humble and it's good to have a personality. We don't know who Raph is, but it's tied into the community. It's good.

And it's easy for the staff to explain. It's not a long story. It's just a quick thing and people say, oh good, thats from the street.

Makes sense. Now you are pretty interesting as well because you've got another business, the catering business, so you are very busy.

Actually I'm really busy. I enjoy it though. Sometimes I become a little tired mentally. But as long as you do what you love, i at the end of the day, you enjoy it. I don't feel trapped or anything.

That's good. So, it's BLD, is that right? Brunch, lunch, dinner?

Yes, Brunch, lunch, dinner. And we started three and a half years ago. I started doing grazing boxes through lockdown. I used to deliver those nice boxes with a bottle of wine, brie, nice cold cuts and fruits and nuts. We started like that. It was really busy, but I didn't really make money off that. It was just to start. And then I was looking for a store because I wanted to use my knowledge, not just for the catering, but for the community as well. And then I found this store and I thought, this is a very good idea because we built a commercial kitchen at the back.

I thought it looked big out there.

Yeah. We have a full commercial kitchen. Now we can do both, but we used to do weddings, birthday parties, everything. I can organize the balloons. DJ, flowers, all that because I love design. I used to work as a graphic designer back home with my dad. From a young age, from 11 years old. My dad is a very good artist. But it was hospitality as well, because imagine an empty shop as this was before. Our job was to give the brand identity, choose the colours and the signage as well. We used to do that. We used to give life to an empty building and make people happy.

And where is home?

Greece. And then I came here and I got involved with cooking because it was the easiest way to get sponsorship. I realized very quickly that I like cooking, for example, and I used my knowledge from design to create something good for the people. Because I think cooking is not a recipe, it's just a philosophy or art, I would say.

Okay. I think first of all, they have to know that it's hard and long hours. They need to love it and don't go just for the money. Because if that is the case, I think that most of the time they will give up. Ask questions all the time and try to learn as much as they can so they can get into the position where they can grow, and they can actually refine their own techniques.

How did you start, how did you get into it when you came here?

I came in 2011.

Oh, I came in 2011 too, but from New Zealand.

That's good. I came at the end of the end of 2011, and I found a job in Apollo Bay.I stayed a couple of weeks here in Melbourne. Then I went to Apollo Bay and I started working in a motel, there were rooms, a restaurant, pizza and fast food takeaway. It was a massive business. I could learn a lot there about Australia. I start working there and learned a lot. Then I met another business person in Apollo Bay. He made me a good offer so that he could sponsor me. I used to work seven days from nine till 10 with a one hour break every single day. It was hard. But I was trying to learn from them, not just the cooking and the food, but the business side as well.Because from them I had in my mind that I want to do something on my own. And I stayed there for maybe four years. It was a good experience. Then I moved to Melbourne and I start working in breakfast and lunch. So, day training. I started in Carlton. Vertue of the Coffee Drink. Do you know it?

I saw your name in an article about another place that you opened, Dirty Apron, and they mentioned that you were from Vertue, but you were helping Dirty Apron set up? I thought, you must be pretty good if they're bringing you in to do the set up.

Before Dirty Apron, I used to work in Gazi. I don't know if you remember George Calombaris. It was one of the most successful businesses in Melbourne. We used to do like 800 to 1000 people every day.

It was cool in there with the flower pots and the things.

It was really nice. They had an open kitchen. Very good chefs. I spent some time there. Then I went to Dirty Apron and we started from scratch. George trusted me. So he didn't even manage me because he saw that I love what I do.

Was Dirty Apron his as well?

Oh no, that was another George.

So many Georges. But George is a big name in Greece though, isn't it?

It's big. They're both Greek background. We set up everything and then I decided to go and work for Food and Desire, which is one of the biggest catering companies, they run the Grand Prix. They have I think six or seven different venues. After that I started my own small catering business. And then we found this store and here you go.

Well done. What a journey. And had you done any cooking in Greece?

No I had done only graphic designing and hospitality. But not in the kitchen. But here, what I did is I used to work day and night. I used to work many, many hours. I achieved something in seven years. I achieved executive chef level that other people probably would spend 15 or 17 years just cause they have only one job and they don't ask questions. They don't want to grow, they don't care. They just go, get paid, go home. And that's it. I wanted to grow and I wanted to become something quicker.

It's interesting that you chose that path because it was the easiest one to get a visa, but now you are saying it's your passion.

Yeah, because actually I realized that what I loved back home in graphic designing, was the art of the craft. And now it's the same. I just like the art of the craft. Its not an easy thing to do. Not everyone can do it. Nothing is perfect, but we try to be as close as we can to perfection. That's all I can say. I don't think anything is perfect, but do you want to be close to perfection or far from it? So what we do, it's not that easy. It seems easy, but it's not.

Is it stressful?

As a business, you mean? I think it's stressful because you ask for growth, you need challenges. You can't grow without challenges. You can't grow without solving problems. You know, you want a baby, you have to wait nine months. Its the same thing. You can't do it now. You have to go through that process in order to make it happen. It's a normal thing.

I feel like you've worked really hard in all those different areas and covered off all those bases. It's pretty impressive.

I think if you know what you and you just stick with that and knowing that the problems will come, the issues will come and then you are ready for them. Don't try to avoid problems. You just have to go through them. And don't give up. Some people might be smarter than me, but they're not going to be in the position that I am because they give up. It's not about how smart you are, it's how much can you afford? And keep going. Keep going and try for the best. This is what I think.

And what would your advice be to someone who was thinking about getting into hospitality now? Do you think?

You mean getting into the business or just be an employee?

Being a chef and working with food.

Okay. I think first of all, they have to know that it's hard and long hours. They need to love it and don't go just for the money. Because if that is the case, I think that most of the time they will give up. Ask questions all the time and try to learn as much as they can so they can get into the position where they can grow, and they can actually refine their own techniques.

And you're obviously someone that likes to learn more and expand your knowledge. You're probably very busy now to do much more than you are doing, but how do you feed that desire to keep learning?

I try to hire people who can teach me something as well. If not at the same level as me, maybe smarter than me. I try to hang around with people, even with my suppliers who are smarter than me so I can learn from them. Because even from a kitchen hand, you can learn something. Even from the barista, you can learn something, even from the front of house, they can tell you something. Most of the time we don't pay attention because we are too cool to listen to someone that we employ. And then you miss that thing. Everyone has something to say and everyone has something to teach you. So I pay attention and I try to hire people smarter than me and also choose my suppliers wisely. If a supplier doesn't fit our standards, we try to find someone else and replace them. That's very important because those people are walking every day in and out, fruit, vegetables, meat, fish, coffee, anything. Its very important to have that five minutes chat and be able to get something from them. Even, for example, the suppliers that they go all around Melbourne every day and deliver things. You can ask, have you ever seen a place that could be something like this? Somewhere that will be very busy. They can come one day and tell you, I found the location for you. If you don't ask, they will never tell you. Someone can say, okay, I was in that area, there is nothing around, I was looking for coffee, I couldn't find anything, and I just saw an empty store in this address, go and check it out. And then also you can discover things through an issue. So his issue, for example, could be, I couldn't find a cafe to go to the toilet. That's an issue. So if we can solve that issue, we can create something. I don't have the time to drive all over Melbourne, but you can use the eyes of someone else to help you do something.

And if you see all our staff at the moment, they are at the same level. They are cute, they cannot be rude. They have to try to be rude. When you hire someone, you cannot tell, them please don't be rude. They have to be happy. You cannot teach that. So you need to choose those people who have to try hard to be rude and they will never be.

And what's next? Are you happy with where you're at? Have you got other plans?

We want to expand. We want to expand a hundred percent because it seems that the people like what we do. I'm not really sure if we do franchise. I wouldn't like that. I would like, for example, to go in another area and adapt to the area with a different name. Maybe a different setup, different colours, but the same value, the same core beliefs. Good people. We want to have happy people internally and externally because we mostly focus on our staff. If they are happy, the customers will be happy as well. I heard an expression many years ago that said, if you want to go to a race with the horses, would you choose the horse or the jockey? You need to choose the jockey because he will be amazing, and he will find the right horse for you. We need to choose the right people, the right staff, who will do the right job, and then the customers will be happy instead of trying to make the customers happy and then your staff.

I think that's really important. And that's something that came up recently. I was at a mental health in hospitality panel discussion. And the big thing was looking after your staff and making sure that your staff are happy. Because then as you say, the flow-on effect is that customers are happy. The people were saying that many owners don't have that mentality. So it's a good lesson. It's a good thing to know, I think.

I think that everything starts internally, from the staff. As an owner, can you do everything by yourself? No, you cannot. And if you want to grow, and have two or three different locations, you need the right people. But they say it's not exactly about having the right people, it is what you do for those people. Because one person can be an excellent worker in one environment and be a not very good worker in another environment. So it depends of the environment that they are in as well. You need to care about them, not just have them because you need them. You need to show that as well. And if you don't believe it, it shows. And long term, it's not a good thing. We have WhatsApp Messenger, and we talk about our news, our experience outside of the business as well. I went to the Peninsula last Saturday and I uploaded some photos and I said, guys, this is good. You should try it. Take your boyfriend, go there. Stuff like that, which is outside work, but I'm not doing it just because I have them here, just because it's inside me. And obviously, I like them.

I think it will be good if we can get this shop running in half a year without me, and then I can move forward and expand. We might do evening trading, who knows? But again, the quality will be good. The people that we hire, they're going to be good. We'll try for the best customer experience instead of just customer service.

Raph's Deli, 161 Gipps Street, Abbotsford

Photography by Simpson Chin @smpsncstudio