Giorgio Linguanti

Conversation with a chef: Hello Giorgio. It’s so nice to see you. I last saw you at the book launch. Let’s start with the Burrata book because it is so beautiful and I was just looking through it again today.

Giorgio Linguanti: The idea of the book came up a few years ago when I was sitting in the cafe downstairs and thinking about the burrata, we didn’t have any burrata on our menu. But all the restaurants are around the city, all the best chefs were using burrata to develop dishes. I said, how is it possible that we make the burrata but we don’t serve it in our café? We should have a burrata everywhere. So I went to the manager, to the chef and said, guys, I want to put burrata everywhere. Can you make some dishes with burrata. Every week then he would have new ideas and come up with new specials with the burrata. It was so interesting. Then I said, you know what? We should do a book about Burrata. I looked on the internet and there was a nothing around the world about burrata. Even in Italy. So I said, I want to do a book, so start collecting recipes. I had the conversation with the chef and manager, but I didn’t say anything to the marketing team. You can see the chef Carlos in the book; there’s a little story about him. He’s a very talented chef. Colombian, but with a passion for Italian food. He has worked in Italy and in New York. A couple of years after the first conversation, I asked how many recipes we had? We had about 50 recipes. I said, okay, let’s now put everything together and make it happen. This business came from God. Always when I think about something happening; I need something or the right people at the right moment, it falls into place. We went to an event and spoke about this project to a person who said, yes, I can help you to write and put together a book. We started like this. We started to create an index, and put together all the information. We did a photo shoot for the recipes and I sent these few photos to this friend of mine in in Italy. This is the guy that invented the machine for making burrata. Before 2021, all over the world, burrata was made by hand. Then this guy invented this unique machine to make burrata and he revolutionised the product around the world, because now the product become more consistent, more clean, because there’s less handling involved and it’s easier to produce in more volume. We have the same machine now from 2022 and we are able to make little burrata, 30 grams, and then 60 grams. You can make some cute things. I sent these pictures to my friend in Italy and he told me that he had met the nephew of the guy who invented burrata. He gave me his number, and I contacted this guy. After we did the photo shoot of all the recipes, I said to the team, we’re going to Italy. We’re going to interview this guy, because I think the book should explain everything about burrata. People want to know the story. We created this little group. I was going to Italy also for other things, but the group came for one week. We travelled through Puglia. That’s the region where burrata was invented. We interviewed this old guy, Antonio, he took us to the original farm, into the original shed, around the little streets of this city called Andria in Puglia, where Burrata was invented in 1935. We went to see the his auntie. The lady was married to the guy who invented the burrata. It was a fantastic journey. In Italy, there are a lot of associations that protect products, they put some rules and protocols around the way the product needs to be produced and promoted. Burrata also has a consortium. This story is not mentioned in the book. We wanted to see the president of the consortium. I contacted him before leaving Australia and he said he was available to do an interview. I told him we were creating a book about Burrata. Then the day before we were supposed to meet, he pulled the pin. First of all, he said he didn’t know if we should meet. He told me that he thinks Burrata made outside of Puglia should be called filled burrata. If it is what the association rules, let’s put it in the book. We want to give the correct information to the readers. But in the end, he was not happy to do an interview and to do any declaration, and to take us into any cheese factories. But we wanted to do some pictured and video of real Burrata made it in Puglia in a small places. I said to everyone, tonight, let’s have dinner, a glass of wine, tomorrow morning we will think about what to do. In the morning after breakfast, we Googled best Burrata in Andria. We went to this little cheese factory and I said, hello, my name is Giorgio, I come from Australia. Is it possible to photograph the process. It was a husband, wife and son working in the business, and a few other workers in production in the deli. The wife said as long as we bought cheese, we could take photos. We all went inside, we made friends, we made pictures. We were all happy. These people were making an original fantastic burrata because they were using local milk from Puglia. They have their own cows. They were separating their own cream, using their own cream and making a real product, and they were not part of the Puglia consortium. They did not believe in the funny politics that was behind this consortium, who were protecting the big guys making burrata with milk from Germany and UHT cream. They didn’t agree with that. So in the end, we found the right guy. So, again, coincidence, manifestation. I believe God sends us obstacles to send us into another direction for a reason. So the book turned out to be very informative. During our tour in Puglia, we went and photographed some ancient variety of cows. 100 years ago in Puglia, there was no Friesian or Jersey cows, they were a variety called Podolica, the grey cows with horns. They were grazing freely in the paddock and they were milked by hand. We photographed those cows. We wanted to give real information for people who were passionate about the product: the story, the evolution, the production, the artisanal productions, industrial production, and then the recipes. The recipes are amazing. 

The photos of the recipes are beautiful. What struck me was that there are quite a few dessert recipes as well made with burrata and it looks divine. 

The dessert recipes were created by Dario Di Clerico, my business partner the Ugo Burrata bar and he’s very creative. 

I came to the launch of That’s Amore in Coles last year. And we came away with an amazing bag of goodies, which are so delicious. But there was a ravioli that we ate at the launch, and my friend who came with me still talks about that ravioli. So that was filled with your cheese and it was just so delicious. The products really stand far apart from a lot of other cheeses that we have on the market. I’m so fascinated because you learnt from scratch when you came here. 

I learned from scratch and I poured my mind into it. I went into it with my palate. Let’s talk about the simple ricotta. When I started making my cheeses, I learned how to make a ricotta. It looks like a simple cheese. For me it is the best dairy product. It’s whey protein, low fat. All my Italian style cheese-making colleagues in Italy as well think the Ricotta is a leftover. It’s something with not much value because the whey is a leftover. For me, for the high quality of all the nutrients in this product, so whey protein, low fat, very digestible, very light, and very nutritious because the whey protein is exactly the same protein people use at the gym, a very noble protein. In the full dairy family, it’s the best product. It should be on the top of the ladder as a nutrient. When I learned to make a ricotta, it’s a simple process, but there is a lot of little things to know about to talk about PH and temperature and I adjusted the recipe to have a ricotta that is very fluffy and smooth. Without adding any cream. If you nail the pH and the temperature and the right quantity of salt, it becomes  a new product. When I started to make my ricotta del delicado, people were using ricotta just for cooking. Often it had a grainy texture in your mouth and not everyone enjoyed that. When I started to put ricotta on the market, people started to discover a new way to enjoy, especially spreading on toast, on a salad. I realised my approach to cheesemaking was because I was making cheese myself every day with milk from different regions: from Northern districts, from Western districts, from the Gippsland area, in different seasons and asking the drivers, what’s on the farm at the moment? Oh, it’s a full of clover. Okay, so I understand why the milk was different. The protein in the milk depends on what food the cows are eating. It’s like us with our dietary calories. We put in our body 1,000 calories, but there are 1,000 calories from pasta or calories from meat or from different nutrients. Exactly the same things with the cows. If they’re eating clover or another variety of grass, the structure of a protein can be stronger, and creates a different flavour. It also depends on what variety of cows there are. We all know there is a few different variety of cows, some are for beef, some are for dairy and the variety we use in other moment, are the Jersey cows, little brown cows or the Friesian cows, black and white. There is another one called Aussie Red. Very unique. It’s a very good quality milk. I enjoy cheeses. I eat all the cheeses, not just the mine. I enjoy cheese from other cheesemakers as well. And I eat the cheese, and I really enjoy them and see the difference. Now we touch another topic, Friesian cows tend to make a little bit more white milk, especially if it’s summer or they are grain fed. If they eat grain, the milk will be much whiter. If they’re eating grass, it becomes yellowish. But between Friesian and Jersey, Jersey is much more yellow, richer in cream and more yellow and the flavour profile is outstanding. Italian chefs prefer white mozzarella, especially on pizzas and they would complain about the yellow cheese and want the white mozzarella. But white mozzarella is harder to achieve in Australia because the majority of the cows eat grass. But when you try mozzarella made with Jersey and Friesian milk, it is much tastier. It’s much more delicious in your mouth. I didn’t go with the trend even when some chefs were pushing for this white product. This has been a point of difference on the market. We try to not take shortcuts. We are working with so many litres of milk and we have big company, but we still treat the milk in the same way as when I started. Milk is a live element. It changes with the seasons, changes with the day, with the variety of grass, with the variety of the land. The same grass grown on another piece of land is like a tomato: we can have the same tomato seeds, you put in your vege patch and I put them in mine and the tomatoes will have a different flavour because of the soil. The soil will give a different flavour to the grass and it changes the flavour of the cheese. These are all interesting topics for me. It’s so challenging. It’s one ingredient if you think about: it’s just milk. Think about how many dairy products you know? Yoghurt, parmeggiano, Mozzarella, Swiss cheese, butter all with the same product. It’s all about what the cheesemaker decides to change as parameters? 

I wonder too, because you learned about cheese making when you came to Australia, and I’m just speculating because I know that European countries, as you were saying, can be very strict around rules and everything has to be done in a certain way. Is there a certain freedom that comes from learning to make cheese in Australia? Did that allow you to apply your own sensibilities? 

First of all, the market and the people are very open to try new things. Where I come from in Sicily, they make a few different varieties of cheese. Mozzarella, Caciocavallo, ricotta and Pecorino. Pecorino should be sheep milk cheese. In my region, there were just these four cheeses. If you introduced another cheese, people wouldn’t appreciate it. Italy is full of these original products. When I came to Australia, I started making cheese in 2007. In 2008, a chef asked me, Giorgio, do you make burrata? I told him I was starting soon. I didn’t tell him I had never seen burrata in my life. I went on the internet, I read books, I experimented at home. And when I have a product that looked like burrata, I told that chef that I had some samples and we tested it together and that’s how I started. I gave it to him in exclusivity for a few months and then I opened up the market. Our Burrata, is a little bit different from the one in Italy. What’s the difference? The stracciatella, the filling is a little bit more runny, more liquid. Why is that? Because these products have been designed by a chef and the chefs want a wow effect to when you slice open the burrata, this is a gooiness from the stracciatella. Italian burrata is thicker. The chef wanted a cinematic effect like Lava Cake. 

It’s quite a performative cheese. I’ve watched the cheesemakers make it at South Melbourne Market, at Ugo and it’s fascinating to watch. How long does it take before you can be so skilled at the stretching and then the seal off? The sealing off seems hard? 

Yes, it seems harder because, of course, what you have too close and with is a knot. One section of the book talks about closing with a knot or with string. Some cheesemakers close with a knot and you have to do this when the curd is very hot. You’re working with curd that is above 70 degrees. You have to be fast and make sure it doesn’t cool down. It’s hot, everything is moving. To be faster in Italy, there was a period where they were making a knot and then in in this town called Andria in Bari Province, where burrata was invented, they made a little bag out of the curd and they filled it and then closed the bag with string. That’s another style as well. 

How do you do it in an industrial setting, on a large scale? 

Think about it also, the first burrata cheese, they were blowing the curd. This was when people were smoking too. 

That’s amazing though. So the curd has been stretched so that it then becomes something that you can blow or twist

It’s like chewing gum, yeah. In the beginning, I had never made burrata. I made a pouch this pouch, shaping it with my hands. Then I meet this Australian cheesemaker, Richard Thomas., and he told me, that in Italy they were blowing the curd. So the morning after I met him, at three o’clock in the morning with nobody else around, not many people at the factory. I tried this other technique. It was not practical, honestly. First of all, it was not hygienic. And then, honestly, it’s like you want to blow up a balloon and the rubber is very strong. Before you are able to blow the balloon you’re already out of breath. I tried everything. 

Where did your love affair with cheese begin? I read that it began in a supermarket aisle when you were at university and disillusioned with your studies. 

Yes, you read that. It’s a little bit more than that. I finished secondary school, I went to university, and I realised that you studying wasn’t for me. 

What were you studying? 

Civil engineering. I did one year and it wasn’t for me. I stopped going to university and I found a job in the supermarket. I worked through different departments and when I was in the Deli, I got to experience some cheese that were not really on our shopping list at home. Like gorgonzola, it’s a blue cheese, a stinky one. Taleggio is another washed rind cheese and it’s stinky. In Sicily, mouldy cheese doesn’t have much success. This was my first experience coming in contact with a big variety of cheese. But after that I was in the army for a year. I went back to the supermarket but in the meantime, there had been a crisis because the discount supermarket had come in the market and it affected the supermarket I had worked in and they couldn’t afford extra workers. I started my new career in sales. From sales, I moved to advertising. I loved advertising. Then for a love story, I decided to close the advertising business because I couldn’t sell it. I started a brand of typical products from Sicily and from little islands near Sicily called the Aeolian Islands. We sold these products for two years with very good results, then the love story finished. We split up, and I came to Australia. I said to everyone, I died in Italy, I was reborn in Australia. 

How did you choose Australia? 

My uncle, my mum’s brother was living in Melbourne in Moorabbin, so I came here. I arrived 11 o’clock at night on the 19th of August 2004. I left Italy. I was darker brown than this table. In August, Italy is in full summer. I arrived in Tullamarine at 11 o’clock at night. The customs stopped me, checked everything, like border security style. I declared I had some capers, some wine. I declared everything. They checked everything and they sent me on my way. And then after I started to watch the television show about border security and I thought wow, they could have sent me back. But I arrived. I spoke no English and I knew nothing about Australia. But I liked Australia; the vibe. I worked in a fruit shop for a year and I improved my English and learned the habits of how people shopped in Australia. I left the fruit shop and I started working in a cheese factory. There was an old cheese maker from Puglia making Italian style cheese like bocconcini, ricotta, mozzarella. I was young, energetic. I was trying to help him out with everything and tried to save him from working too hard and I was also learning everything. His name was Joe and I asked him a lot of questions. I said, Joe, why is the cheese different from yesterday? He would say, Why you want to know? I don’t tell you. And then, Joe, why does the milk smell different from yesterday? He would say, Why you want to know? I don’t tell you. I was asking so I could do my job better. I was very curious so I asked my brother in Florence to buy me a book about cheese. When the book about cheese came, I started to read it and I started to put together all the information he was not sharing with me, together with the practical job. I started making cheese at home. I would buy 20 litres of milk, take it home and make cheese. He saw this passion and proposed that we go into partnership together. Eventually I moved away from the cheese factory and worked at another cheese factory for a few months and then I went and work for Visy board, a recycling company doing a night shift. Thern I had my mornings free, to work on my English. In the mornings I would watch movies. My wife at the time was working. I watched movies in English, sub-titles in English, with a little dictionary to check the wording and I improved my English. I never went to school. Then one morning, I said, I can’t do this job forever. It’s not really why I’m in Australia. I was making a flat mozzarella at home called bocconcini leaf. Nobody else was making it. I thought I would go to a restaurant, and see whether they wanted to use it. Brunetti was my first customer. I made one batch of this bocconcini leaf. I rolled them up, one with salmon, another one with prosciutto, another one with a some black olive pate and in the morning I went to Brunetti. I knocked on the door and the owner was available. Fabio came out and we spoke, we tested together, and he asked me how much I could make. I said, about 16 kilo in a batch. He said, okay, bring me everything you make. He give me the first order. Everything started from that. I never stopped again. In the beginning, I was cheese making on a Sunday. Delivery during the week. working at Visy Board at night. I was doing deliveries with an esky in an old Ford Laser. Then in April 2008, I quit Visy Board. I bought a little van and that summer I started making cheese full-time. I had been doing both jobs. I was really killing myself. Every day I had more customers. In 2010 in partnership with a girl I opened up a little shop in Elgin Street in Carlton called La Latteria. Every day I brought the curd from the cheese factory in Donnybrook, because at the time we were in Donnybrook to Carlton, and we used the curd in Burrata, Bocconcini, Mozzarella. I would make little cheese every day or yoghurt whch was fermented in this little pie warmer in in the shop. Then we were growing because the chefs were enthusiastic about the quality of the product, and they were sharing our number amongst them. 

Did you ever imagine when you were driving around in your Ford Laser that you would have this huge production now and your cheese is in lots of restaurants. It’s in Coles. People know That’s Amore. Did you imagine, did you dream, or did you want it to be as big and successful as it is or did it just become that? 

I was not expecting at the time to become so big. I remember I was in the Ford Laser randomly proposing my product. I had my shirt  embroidered with That’s Amore cheese and I was presenting myself professionally because I think this was the way to be if you want to start growing. Then in 2010 I started to feel the enthusiasm for this product and the real potential. Then I was in a little cheese factory in Donnybrook, where I was renting, I felt the vibe. In 2012, I felt, okay, we’re growing so fast. I needed a larger factory. I found a landlord that built this factory on purpose for me. I chose this piece of land. He built it for me. I designed the factory. Everyone was talking about That’s Amore. We were getting awards. At a certain point I started to have visions to become big and bigger. And now here we are. We’re exporting also to Japan, Singapore, South Korea. We make some organic mozzarella for one particular brand and we are halal certified. We tick a lot of boxes. In the meantime, we started another sister brand called Cannoleria. Again, we didn’t invent cannoli. But when we were doing exhibitions, everyone was sampling the cheese. Sometimes there were all these people coming and just grabbing cheese and eating it and going away without even giving us feedback. I wasn’t happy to give out free cheese. I said let’s sell the cheese in a dish. We started doing Caprese salad and cannoli. Then elaborated from caprese salad to caprese skewers with cherry bocconcini. In Sicily Cannoli are traditionally made with ricotta. And here nobody was making cannoli with ricotta. The majority of them were making it with custard. Often when you put on the display, sometimes there’s other desserts that look nicer than cannoli. So the cannoli were sometimes there sadly on the side so we started piping cannoli in front of the people. Then business started to grow and I spoke to Dario about going into a cannoli business together. The first shop was in South Melbourne Market and South Melbourne Market told us that cannoli wouldn’t be enough and that we should put out other cheeses as well. I said, let’s try just with cannoli and then if it doesn’t work, we put the cheese in. The first week we had five people working in the shop, three people piping non-stop and two people selling non-stop. Bobody expected the numbers we got. Since then, we haven’t stopped. 

It’s so delicious. I don’t have a sweet tooth, but I really loved the cannoli because it’s not too rich or too sweet. The consistency of the whipped ricotta is just so smooth and the crunch is delicious. 

Absolutely. Because again, it should be piped on the spot. The shell has it to be crunchy. We work without preservatives and colour free. There is no shortcut to quality. It’s very important. 

I usually end conversation with a chef by saying, with all your experience, what would your advice be to a young chef starting out? But I was thinking you’re so entrepreneurial and you’ve moved to a new country, learned a language, and built an empire. What would your advice be to people in a business sense working in hospitality and working through obstacles and producing the kind of product that you have. 

First of all, there is always a possibility to do something different. Especially in Melbourne, you can be a point of difference because the market is so open to trying new things. Do quality and work hard. Nothing comes from nothing. You can’t think of a shortcut. If you make quality, you’re able to charge for the quality. I believe in quality and there are a lot of opportunities. The market is always changing. I noticed since I started, we shifted from pizza to Focaccia to Panini, to pasta, and new people come in. I say to young people that they need to have a vision. This is the most important thing. If you don’t desire something, it doesn’t come. Then you need to be fast to catch the opportunity. The opportunity always comes once. The day after there can be another opportunity, but you lose the one from the day before. It’s gone. An opportunity is like a wild bird. The opportunity won’t come into your hand. Come close enough to be willing to catch it, to be fast and agile enough to catch the opportunity and make happen. It’s been my life. Maybe other people have been more lucky than me or some others have not, but my experience has been that.

That’s Amore Cheese, 66 Latitude Boulevard, Thomastown