Harry Dhanjal

Hi, Harry and welcome to Conversation with the Chef. 

Thank you for having me. 

Well, actually, you’re having me. We’re sitting in Atta, which is a really beautiful restaurant. It’s got a few different sections. Where we are has really beautifully, whitewashed walls. What did this building used to be? 

It’s always been a restaurant for almost 40 years. The person who owns the restaurant is of Greek heritage, and he was running a Greek restaurant for almost 20 years, give or take. Then it was a Vietnamese place for a good 10, 15, 20 years and then we came in. In the course of time, it’s only had three different people owning the restaurant and three different cuisines. 

It has got that beautiful bluestone as well on the outside facade, and around the bottom part of the wall here. That feels very Melbourne to me. 

It is, and by the way, it’s a heritage listed property. So it does have a heritage overlay and the owner is very passionate about making sure it stays true to its bones. 

Atta has been here for 10 years, so congratulations. I think in this current climate and having got through COVID and everything, that’s a big achievement. 

Yes, COVID particularly was very difficult. But I think the passion and love for food is what got us going, and we were doing takeaways and the locals were really supportive and they made sure to make a point to come and take food from here, just to make sure they were supporting the local business. That’s what got us through those three and a half years. 

Thinking back to 2015, when you opened, what did you imagine for Atta and has the vision changed over the years? 

10 years back, the climate was different. The industry was different than what it is currently. Now why do I say that? 10 years back, when we started this project, it was a very passion driven project. Today, there are chefs, and thank God they are good chefs in Indian cuisine and the arena. They’re doing creative bits and they’re innovative, they travel and they’re wanting to bring not a stock standard Indian cuisine, but different flavours of Indian cuisine, but that wasn’t the case 10 years back. That was our key driver: how do we make this cuisine shine in this part of the world? My references were, if you’ve travelled to the UK, back in the late 80s, early 90s, when Indian cuisine was looked at like comfort food after the pub, £10 curries. And that was still the case with Indian cuisine 10, 15 years back, and really the driver for us was to change the perception. It’s highlighted on our website very broadly. We are here to change the perception and to highlight how deep Indian cuisine is, and therefore the inception of Atta was really driven by a lot of passion and a drive to change the perception of a local community, the people who have not travelled that quite of the world, to let them feel the taste, that it’s deeper. 

What was the reception, then, at the start? 

It was difficult, I must say, because, when the guests would come they would come with a certain expectation and certain perception of an Indian restaurant. It took time. We invested a lot of time, not just on the flavours, but also on presentation, so that it appeals, it feels different. It tasted different. So there was a lot of time in the kitchen, 14, 15 hours sometimes. I kid you not, I was sleeping here. My brother also cooks with me. We were both driven; trying and experimenting and fusing and all of that. Social media was only coming then in mainstream, 10 years back, 12 years back. As far as I know. We were tapping into that and trying to reach out to as many people as we could. 

I saw an article that Dani Valant wrote, which was full of praise, I think, maybe not long after you opened. She mentioned that fusion is usually a dirty word but that you were doing a few different blending of ideas. So not only perhaps blending the idea of fine dining with Indian food, but also with different regions of cuisine as well. Is that something you’re still doing? 

Absolutely. What was happening before was that you were either doing South Indian cuisine or you were doing North Indian cuisine, or you were doing some part of the West, which wasn’t really big. But we thought you know what? There are 26 states, with different flavours, different languages, different ways they consume the food. It’s basically the United States of India. Different states have got their own way of living. So, it’s a golden opportunity for us to represent not just a state or a region, but to explore and see how we can blend different cuisines within the same country and expose these flavours out here. That’s always been the mission. This is not our first restaurant, by the way, we’ve had different restaurants before this. Where we’ve succeeded or we did not succeed or whatever the story was, it has always been the ethos to bring those different flavours and cuisines together. She said that very well. 

There’s also that play with innovation and tradition, which you’ve spoken about a little bit already. Do you have to tow a middle line between innovation and tradition or do you go more one way or the other? 

The more I think about it, innovation and tradition go hand in hand. There are not two separate things. Innovation is deeply rooted within tradition. The tradition has to be a massive root to hold the innovation, but that’s where it;s embraced and it brings the whole thing together. For example, some of the dishes which we do, the innovation governs how we present, how do we use modern techniques to enhance the flavour, but also to make sure that we are not, for the lack of a better word, bastardising the flavours and just making sure it’s real. That’s why we never say Atta is a fusion Indian restaurant. We very carefully say it’s a modern Indian restaurant. What that really means, is that it’s a modern technique, modern way of plating, but also making sure that we are absolutely respectful of the traditions. We’re making sure what works are the only dishes that stay on the menu.

If you had to choose one dish from the menu that really sums up what Atta is about, is that possible or you need to do the journey through the menu? 

No, but it’s very difficult though. The reason I say that because if the dish is there on the menu, it absolutely deserves to be there on the menu. Otherwise, there’s no way. I can go through the logbook and there’s many failures we’ve had in terms of putting the dishes together, whether it’s a flavour, design or the composition. Look, they had been a few dishes, for example, Sikandari Raan, which is Alexander’s lamb, there’s a big history associated with that dish. That dish has gone through a few iterations in the way it’s presented and the way it’s done, but it’s been at Atta since 10 years. The butter chicken which we do has been on the menu for 10 years. There are few dishes, which would be criminal to take out. It’s not because they’re selling well or they’re the favourite, so it’s a go-to dish, but they’re just good dishes. That’s the reason they’re there. 

As I said before, to be a good chef you need discipline, drive and passion. If you’ve got these three ingredients as a soft skill, anything else after that would be easier, whether it’s cutting skills, whether it’s learning different techniques. I thought when I was younger, once you know the technique, you’re a chef, but that’s really not the case. It just a small part of the whole story.

Harry Dhanjal, Atta

Coming to Atta for dinner, what would be the best way to go through the menu? Do you start with the smaller dishes and work through? Is it a shared menu or is it an individual menu? 

The way the menu’s been structured. A stock standard dining, where you come in and participate in à la carte, we go with the ‘Essentials’. In the Essentials, we’ve got golgappa, like a small bite size puff. It basically just cleans the palate and gets you ready, because you know, you’ve had coffee before or you’ve had whatever, before coming to dine. It cleans the palette and this makes you ready. So that’s the first thing which we do. Then you go through the entree, which is not shared, that’s individual, but if you’re wanting to share, then you’re more than welcome to do so. The mains are basically shared curries and naan breads and biryanis. And then desserts, people do share, but they’re designed to have individually. So you start with individual appetisers and then entrée, then shared mains and then dessert. 

I’ve been looking at some photos of the food and it looks so incredible. The curries look so rich and savoury and delicious. But I was a bit intrigued by the dirty samosa. What is that? 

The dirty samosa is a street food in India. In India, they call it chaat samosa. Chaat means it’s got a bit of spice and it gives you a higher note. And then samosa is the pastry. The reason we call it dirty samosa, because I didn’t want it to call it chaat samosa. We’ve done a bit of alteration to the traditional dish. So we do a big splash of yoghurt which makes the plate ‘dirty’. It’s abstract, I guess. I could have called it abstract samosa. But I thought dirty samosa, it just goes with the presentation of the dish. But the dish is anything but dirty when it comes to tasting. 

That spice level, is that different according to different dishes? 

The entrée spice level is pretty standard. There is a misconception about spice. When guests come in they go, I’m coming here for the first time. I’ve never dined at Indian restaurant. Is it going to be too spicy for me? The misconception is that spice doesn’t mean it’s high on chilli. Spice means the heat in the curries and the heat comes from cumin, it comes from cardamom, it comes from white salt, it comes from pink salt, it comes from Kashmiri chilli. That’s what spice means. It doesn’t mean the heat. But what happens, however, if you were to come with someone who likes the heat in the curry in terms of the chillies, then you always ask would you like medium hot, or hot hot. Then we spice it up that way. But if you were to dine in out of the box, like in a BAU menu, the spice level has a hit, but it doesn’t have a lot of spice in it. Some of the curries which we do, for example, in Nagesi Koa, or lamb korma, or butter chicken, as an example, have sweet notes to it. It has a heat, but it has a sweetness to it, so it’s not high in chilli at all. 

When I was in Udaipur, probably 10 years ago now. I did a cooking class with a really wonderful woman called Shashi and she came out with a big round tin with individual tins of just so many different spices. I guess it about the blending. Can you go crazy and have 20 spices or is there a standard number? 

The answer is crazy. We call it a masala box. You would go to India and every household will have a masala box. And every household will have their version of a masala box, depending upon what region and what state of India you are in. So that’s very complex if you think about it. For example, if you were to come to Punjab, which is near Kashmir, the northern side of India, the masalas are different. Because in that part of the world, people don’t use as much mustard seed, and they don’t use as much curry leaves. But if you travel more towards the south, like Kerala or Madras, you’ll find the mustard seeds are pretty much common, and you’ll find curry leaves are pretty much common. But normally you’ll have about seven or eight different types, like in a turmeric you’ll have, coriander powder, you’ll have cumin powder. So these are some of the things which you’ll find sort of a common thread.

I loved it. Rajasthan was so beautiful. Just all the colours and lots of forts. 

Lots of forts. They spoil you, don’t they? Every dish has so much history behind it, and you go, oh, this was done 20 years back, or 300 years back and was cooked for a specific occasion. One of the interview I’ve done, one of the questions the interviewer asked me was how long does it take you to learn Indian cuisine? Give me the number, Harry. And I said, “Well, I don’t know. A lifetime is not enough, because there are so many dishes. It’s crazy. I always say to my staff, we’re barely scratching the surface. There is so much there. If you were to change the menu every three months, and if you were to do that for next 10 years, we can definitely do it. 

So how are you how you journeying through that then as a chef? Where do you go to learn more or to find out more about those different dishes or flavours? 

I travel. I must admit, I’m not travelling as much as I would love to. I should be really doing one trip every couple of years and a good solid one month dedicated to meeting people and discovering ingredients. But just with work, I’m trying to do as much as I can, but otherwise, there’s books I read. There are great chefs, they’ve put together books that go through it. There’s a lot of material. And now with the internet, the sky’s the limit and you start researching, you could spend days on different versions done by different chefs. 

Thinking about the dishes having a story, for your personally, what are your early memories of food? Do you have dishes that are close to your heart? 

Look, I can go back in childhood, I was a larder chef I used to call myself. I didn’t know that word then, but because I know the terms now. Like Italians and Greeks, anda  few other cultures, food is a central apart. If I was to go home and say, “Mum, I’m full, I can’t eat anymore.” She would say, “Oh, really, are you full? Okay, I’ll cook something small for you.” Do you know what I’m saying? Food is such a central part. My grandmothervwas a brilliant cook. She was a housewife, housemaker, food was such a big deal: lunch and the dinner. Two big meals a day. There was always a variety, she was always cooking, and my job used to be cutting the salad and cutting the onions and all of that. That’s where I was spending a reasonably good time in the kitchen and that’s where the whole interest started. When I came here and I worked at different places and I thought, this is my calling, because I’m enjoying it. I don’t get tired and this interests me and I never feel, oh my gosh, I’m going to work. But I figured that out very soon in my early teens, I’m like, you know what? I think this is it. 

And where did you grow up? 

In Punjab. 

What made you come to Melbourne? 

My mother’s brother, my uncle, he used to run a restaurant in Bendigo back in the nineties on High Street. He is not doing it anymore, because he’s getting old. My mother at that time said, look, he’s got something happening in the cooking, and you’re wanting to pursue cooking and all of it. He was here, he was running a restaurant anyway, so it just made an easy transition. It wasn’t in Melbourne, but it was Bendigo, so it was pretty close. I spent some time with him, and then I moved to Melbourne because there was more opportunity and I could learn. So that’s how I ended up coming. 

Did you go to cooking at school or did you learn on the job? 

No, self-taught. What I did, however, back in 2007, 2006, whenever the GFC was happening. I spent a couple of years in India, and I really spent time there and trained myself reading books and really starting from basics: cutting skills and all of that. And in India, I can tell you one thing, it’s hard yards. When you’re working, you’re working. That set the foundation for me, I reckon, more than anything else. And then obviously I came here and started learning under different people. 

What’s the hardest technique to accomplish? 

Discipline. I reckon that’s what I feel, some of the chefs we work with, is just the sheer discipline. It’s not easy when you’ve got 60, 70 people or guests sitting outside and dockets printing like a tsunami, it’s discipline and really having that passion. But I think these two things, if you put them together, then any technique, whether it’s cutting techniques or what have you, that can be learned, because that’s hard skills, but these are the soft skills. Really, really important. 

So then do you think anyone can be a chef, not just a cook, but a chef? 

As long as you have one of these two things, though. And very well said, there are many cooks, not too many chefs. I sometimes feel it’s also the creative part in you, though to think outside the box to spend time, to learn more than what you’ve been taught, to do self-learning, as long as you can do that, I think anyone can be, really. 

You’ve won awards and had excellent reviews and so on. Is that important to you to be recognised? 

I think it just validates what you’re doing is right and validates that you’re still relevant. I think, not just for me, but also for the team to get their recognition, it basically says that we’re on the right track. People still think there’s a value coming here. So, yeah, it’s important. Is it that important that it drives the work? The answer is no, but it’s important that it makes sure we are encouraged to do more and offer more. So I reckon it’s important. 

Obviously, you’ve got the passion. What do you love about being a chef? 

I think it’s the creative side to it. If you think about it, there’s only so much real estate you’ve got to work with, then how do you make it palatable? And also to make sure that you’re still standing out from the rest. That’s number one, that’s from a technique and execution point of view. We’ve got an open kitchen, I’ll give you a tour later. People come and they want to talk to me or whoever’s at the pass. They want to know about the dish. They bring the kids up, and they get excited looking at how the things are done. So, to see the sheer joy, and sitting in the mezzanine is a high ticket item, people love to come and sit there, because that’s where they can see us working and plating and all of it. So just to see their joy and the happiness. Going to a restaurant, it’s a happy place, that’s good. 

So good. And what does Atta mean?

Atta means flour. It’s a base ingredient, whether it’s your bread or atta goes in some of the curries. It’s a base ingredient and then you build on top of that. 

I love that. You’ve already really touched on this a little bit, but I usually finish off my conversations with the question, what would your advice be to a young person starting out as a chef? 

As I said before, to be a good chef you need discipline, drive and passion. If you’ve got these three ingredients as a soft skill, anything else after that would be easier, whether it’s cutting skills, whether it’s learning different techniques. I thought when I was younger, once you know the technique, you’re a chef, but that’s really not the case. It just a small part of the whole story. And you know what? It’s also a lifestyle. Think about it, Friday night, people are out, and here you are cooking. Saturday is the same thing. So when people are going, and if you always look at that side and go, oh my gosh, I’m working here and people are having fun, you’re never going to succeed. It’s a lifestyle where you need to think, look, this is what I chose, this is what I want to do and this is what gives me happiness. As long as you have that, I reckon any young person can be a successful chef. 

Thank you. And congratulations on 10 years. 

Atta, 159-161 Victoria Avenue, Albert Park