Hugh Sanderson

Hi Hugh, how are you feeling?

I don't really feel any different to how I did three or four days ago, my symptoms were fairly mild really. I didn't lose smell or taste which was great because our chef did.

That would be terrible as a chef.

I think you just rely on it so much. I can't imagine. That was one thing I asked, if I get Covid, please don't let me lose that. So, I was fairly unscathed as far as Covid goes. Its crazy to think we have spent two years trying to do everything we can to dodge it and now we have no choice. It's out there.

I just saw a viral Tik Tok where a guy is asking, what happened to Covid? No one talks about it anymore, what was the last two years?

I appreciate what we did.

Absolutely.

I understand that, but here we are now and I had that thing I tried so hard not to get and suddenly after two and a half years, it's the first time it has affected the business. It affected Savarin early on in the year because some of the guys got it then. We stayed open all the way through and did takeaway and we were doing deliveries of fruit and vegetables and meat and did what we could do and it never shut us down. And then last week we went to takeaway only and even more restricted than we had ever been because we didn't want to affect other staff and wanted to make sure our customers were safe.

That's the reality of it, isn't it? I keep seeing really great businesses shutting down. It has forced a lot of peoples' hands.

I am so thankful we are in the suburbs and not the CBD. I would hate to see what it would be like to be in business in the CBD. I think if you are the big boys you'd be ok and you'd have your reputation to rely on but I'd hate to be a cafe or a big business.

I find it fascinating because there are businesses opening and I have written about them, but perhaps they are the big boys as you say and already have other venues behind them. But even walking down Swanston Street there are places with queues out the door and they are your more Asian food places and they look great.

I agree. I was in the city a couple of weeks ago and there is such a different feel. I worked in the city for 15-odd years and stepped out of it for five or six and going back in there, it is like the city I remembered but then its not. Up the top end, up near Williams and King there were all these new arcades and hotels and things I had never seen before. We were the same with opening Savarin. We didn't want to snap down to Covid. We have dreams and passions and things we want to do and we were not going to stop because of that. It was difficult and very interesting December and January and in some ways it feels like we are coming out the other side now, regardless of knowing how many cases we have today, I think everyone is getting on with it as best they can.

People are tired and the idea of being in lockdown makes our soul shrivel so hopefully there is no going back to that but we cant downplay that latent exhaustion that people have from being so tense all the time.

At this point, nothing would surprise us. If we go back to takeaway or back to remote learning or if you go back from the office to working at home, we just would.

People even joke about having a little lockdown just to have a break because it is hectic getting into it all again.

It's interesting. I think lockdowns took their toll on everyone mentally. Easter and last Christmas were an interesting time because it was the first time there were no restrictions and we could go away. You could get on a plane and visit family or sit in the sun and there was no fear of lockdowns or getting stuck. It was probably the first break we all had and I think it has caught up on everyone now. Even though we were in lockdown for two years, we didn't stop. We didn't take holidays, we put money into the house and into renovations but it's not the same thing.

And you guys opened a bar.

But we saw the celebrations coming out of lockdown where people could go and catch up with friends and people they hadnt been able to see. That was a really great thing to see.

I love seeing the Bar Savarin Instagram. Is that Evan who runs that?

Yes.

It's very clever, all the little equips he has on there, but I love the response from the followers. I guess it's people in the neighbourhood and your friends and it is so lovely.

I don't know. I think you become connected to customers and you get to know your regulars and start forming friendships and they root for you, they really want to see you succeed and they see other successes we have in the business and they think thats great and they make comments about us deserving it.

We have a cafe in the bottom of our apartment building, and I think it's that thing that when you go every day and get a coffee and the people remember your name and they ask about things and you make that bond, you feel appreciated by them and I think that's what hospitality should be; you feel special. I mean, you're spending money with them, but you are eating and drinking with them. Especially at local places like Custodian and Savarin.

It comes back to Savarin and how I look at things and I am going to talk about myself and how I am in the businesses. Savarin's quote about welcoming a guest into your business and you are responsible for their happiness and wellbeing while in your care. As soon as I heard that 15 years ago, that's what I wanted. Its what I expect, and don't always get, but I think it's a lovely thing to have someone feel that when they come into your business. Some people don't necessarily want it and I think you need to be able to recognise the people who just want the transaction and thats it, but it's that little bit extra on top and that is where the name, Savarin came from. And here, the cafe, our catchphrase is, keepers of our trade.

That's nice; Custodian, I see.

We are about old-style service where we show that we care. There is a bit more attention than what you might expect when you come to a cafe and we pride ourselves on that and impart that to staff. You get to know everyone on a deeper level; customers and staff and it's a lovely thing.

Surely that's why people get into hospitality. It's not the case with every venue. Hugh, I was interested to know how you got into it in the first place. I was reading a little Q & A that you did in 2013 in The Australian.

Is that still around?!

I read there that it was your grandmother who inspired you to become a chef.

Yes. True. We grew up with the Sunday roast at Grandmothers house and she would make everything from scratch. She would make her own bread and I always remember staying there as kids and the fresh loaf of bread would come out in the morning and there would be lashings of butter. It was what she did that stuck with me. She worked for the CWA and was always involved in the church and baking stuff, like rock cakes. I don't even know what they are. She always loved cooking. Something happened one day, I must have been sick, and I was watching Geoff Jansz on tv in the early nineties and I thought, I want to cook what he just cooked. I can't remember what it was, but I remember it had a lot of cheese. I guess that feeling of family meals and everything and everyone was there, and it was always delicious and thats where it started. It started with cooking at grandma's house. Mum and dad were separated and we would be waiting for mum to come and pick us up and then I would cook once a week and then it grew from there. In high school, I decided that was the path I wanted to take. I was adamant I wanted to finish Year 12.

Are you from Melbourne?

I'm actually from Tasmania, from Hobart. So I think here it is called VCAL, but it was Vocational Training. We could study hospitality management and I did the first two years of my commercial cookery certificate in Years 11 and 12, knowing that I would leave and get an apprenticeship and become a chef. I cooked all through high school and had kitchen hand jobs and worked in the cold larder in different restaurants on Hobart.

Obviously they were good enough experiences for you want to continue but were they shouty chefs then?

No they weren't. It wasn't until I started my apprenticeships that I got into the shouty chefs and even then, I have never worked for that style of chef. I don't think it works, personally, I think you can get a lot more out of people if you treat them with the respect they deserve. I'm not a yeller or a screamer; I sometimes lose my temper but it is never berating or belittling. I don't think that works. I worked with some colourful characters, but I spent my whole teens knowing I was going to be a chef.

Did you have a planned trajectory; go overseas, or become a head chef?

No. I never went overseas, for better or worse. I always knew I wanted to own something, that was always the goal. I struggled to get an apprenticeship in Tassie. That was around 2000. So I got jobs like I worked for a couple of weeks front of house at the Olympics in one of the big hotels there, then I got a job in the casino in Hobart as a first year apprentice. That was amazing for me because it had all these outlets and had fine dining and then it had a gaming floor and buffets and so many different things, I felt like it was a really good place to start. I met my, at the time girlfriend, we then moved to Melbourne.

I worked at a restaurant that's not there anymore, Luxe. It's now Mr Wolf in St Kilda. I went there as a third year apprentice and had never been around food like that. I had always been in hotels and to go to a restaurant where you just focus on one thing was such an awakening. There were all these techniques like butchery that I had never come across. The head chef and sous chef were such good teachers. The head chef, who is a very good friend now, was a mentor and he had trained with Marco Pierre White and had come from three hat restaurants in Melbourne. I thought it was amazing, so I worked with him for quite a while and rose up the ranks.

Who was that?

Leigh Dundas. I was his sous chef in a more restaurant focussed hotel called The Royce, which I think shut down over Covid. I worked my way up and became his sous chef. Then I thought I needed to head out and try other things. I went back to restaurants and worked for a year with the sous chef I took over from and worked as his sous chef and learned more about butchery; breaking down sides and learning how to truss and make sausages and things you don't see that often anymore. Then I went to Syracuse and that was where it started. I went there as a sous chef and used to run nights and worked under the head chef.

It's a funny place. It feels like a fancy hotel foyer.

Well it used to be a hotel foyer. Back in the 1920s it was a hotel.

I spoke to Philippa Sibley when she was there.

Right. It has actually just reopened as something else, it's the guys who have 38 Chair in Prahran. I loved the dining room, it was such a lovely place.

Tiny kitchen, right?

It was an elevator shaft. Literally an elevator shaft. It was amazing what you could do out of that kitchen and that's why small kitchens dont bother me. As long as you structure yourself around a small kitchen. I was at Syracuse for a bit, then I left for my first head chef job, which wasn't great, but then came back to Syracuse and was head chef there for just over three years. That was great.

Was that more French-styled food there?

I guess so. I'd more call it Modern European. I have a love for Asian flavours, well anything really. There is so much amazing food out there and flavours and cuisines and I don't really want to deny any one thing.

You were at Seamstress too.

Yes, and that was more straight down the line Asian. I was only there for eight or nine months. I had some personal things going on; it was an interesting and difficult time. So that was when I, after that, decided to step away from the nights and move into cafes and try and get a bit of a balance. In the back of my mind I'd always had I mean, I love cafes and I love the interaction with the customers, I find that I spent a lot more time out the front than I do in the kitchen these days but in the back of my mind there was always this wine bar pull. I wouldn't say I looked at it through rose-coloured glasses but there was always such a strong appeal about the fun and the atmosphere you have in a wine bar. It's relaxed, it's fun and I missed the ingredients and the ability to do small things that were a bit more intricate. There was always that pull back and deep down I knew it would happen one day and nights would come back into play somewhere along the line.

Then the serendipity of the Savarin crew. I love that story.

It started with a conversation with Denis and Liz and then Chris came into it and Evan just happened to be waiting to do this and said he loved the idea and it all came together.

How do you manage two businesses? It's a lot.

Look, it is a lot. It's harder than I thought in some ways. This persistent liquor licence issue that should be fixed soon has made it harder because Savarin has never had its proper go at it. Once a week is not what we want to do. It's great and it runs well but until we get our four nights, it hasn't had a chance to find its feet properly. It's an interesting juggle at the moment and there are days and weeks where I feel I give neither place the attention it needs. I'm lucky I have a really amazing crew at Custodian; Jerry's a great partner and I know our chef has my back. I've worked hard to get it to a place where I can step back a bit because I knew I would be doing this. I guess I have an idea in my mind about how we can set both places up so that I have the ability to come and go a little bit. I dont think it is ever going to be easy and I never expected it to be easy. Having one business isn't easy; every time you think you settle into a routine, someone says they can'y do it anymore and we are back to the drawing board. Again, I think once Savarin is doing what it needs to do, it will be a lot easier to manage.

And it's back to more French or European-style food with local produce, which is lovely.

Again, a lot of the suppliers we use, I've had relationships with for years. Flinders and Co were newish when I first met them. I wanted wallaby and the meat supplier said they could get it but it usually goes to New South Wales and to give this guy a call because they do wallaby from Flinders Island and the next day James Madden, who started Flinders and Co with his dad came into Syracuse with all these different wallaby samples. They have grown into an incredible business. We get our meat from them and its great knowing we have access to the products they have because of the quality or it has a bit of a story. There's a guy I used to get my mushrooms and truffles off who I hadnt used much because in a cafe, you can't use truffles and caviar. But for Savarin, I know he has amazing tinned sardines and tinned anchovies and he can get me caviar and things that I have missed. The little thing that was burning in the back of my mind and in a wine bar I can use those things again.

It seems as though you do, but do you still get excited about planning dishes?

I do. Some dishes can plague me for months; it will be an idea I can't get out of my head. It takes forever and some things are literally, oh that's in season and I have a whole dish there ready to go.

Do you have cookbooks or look at other people's food? Or is it your own repertoire?

It's a bit of everything. It's a bit of experimentation, it's a bit of, what can I do with that that's not what people might expect? But I never want food to be inapproachable and I don't want people to think something is too scary to try. That's not what Savarin set out to be nor what Custodian set out to be. But if we have beetroot on the menu, it might not be how you might expect it to be. It's about to find the fun or have a play on something. We have the mushroom parfait on the menu at Savarin which was a thought about whether I could make a mushroom parfait like a pate, same style as a duck or chicken pate but with mushrooms. We do exactly the same thing except it is vegetarian, definitely not vegan. We garnish it with a sherry honeycomb. We make honeycomb but instead of using honey as the main flavour, we substitute with golden syrup and sherry vinegar and it's a little sweet crunch of a garnish. It's a simple thing and I don't want to push anything into people's faces that they see as weird and confronting, its like a little twist on something everyone knows and it becomes a nice garnish that adds to the dish. That came about just because I wondered whether I could do it. Quite often I find myself in the kitchen this is really funny I love recipes; I think they are the key to consistency and quality which is what I base the businesses on, but I was never taught with recipes, I was always shown how to do something and that was it. I cook without recipes; I just do it and think about what I am adding and how I am doing it and how does it taste. But then I have to separate myself and think about what I actually did and I have to write it all down. It's one thing for me to be able to do it, but everyone needs to be able to do it. Theres no point putting a dish on the menu if only one person can cook that dish. Thats not how things should be. Everyone should be comfortable enough to do it. Some things are easy and just happen and others haunt me for ages and I know what I want to do and can visualise it, I just need to get there.

It all looks amazing on Instagram and I do want to come back over when there are more nights to choose from.

Once we are doing the four nights, it will be so much better. We will all relax, because we are not trying to be that nervous ball of excited energy about the 40 people coming in. We can be in our space and enjoy it for what it is.

As a final question, you've already found your space and know what you need to do within the hospitality arena. What would be your advice to someone who wants to become a chef now?

I think, do it. I think it's a really lovely time to be a chef. Its not the most glamourous trade but a lot of us are doing it for ourselves and opening our own businesses and so I think for someone who is coming into it new, there are opportunities now to work for people who have seen the scary bad side of it, come out of it and have said this is not how it should be; it should be more about balance, it should be more about enjoyment and passion. I see there are not as many apprentices around now, but every time I see students from TAFE or the Cordon Bleu come down here, it's a great thing to see these kids in their shiny new uniforms ready to face the world. There is so much good stuff happening and there is a lot more support and awareness for the new generation coming through.

Custodian Kitchen, Moorabbin

Bar Savarin, Cheltenham