James Gibson

Hi, James. Nice to meet you. What perfect weather for Viva Mexico! And you recently went to Mexico with the team?

Yes, we went for three weeks. We went to five different cities in Mexico. It was the first time I've been invited on one of the research trips.

I love that they do that.

It is honestly indispensable. What we gained while we were over there, I didn't even realize how much I was gaining until I came back and started writing the menu. Everyone was asking me what I was going to do and the picture was just so clear in my mind. I dont think it would have been the same venue without it, so a huge bonus for us, for me in the kitchen. Obviously, they send the venue manager as well, and then everyone above us. It was amazing.

Where did you go? What were the five places?

First we went to Tulum. And Tulum is a bit more Americanised. It's still Mexican. They serve Mexican food, but it plays to the tourists that are coming in. After that we wenttoOaxacawhich is the Home of Mezcal and we saw people make mezcal. It's also the home of mole, but I'm not a big fan of mole. After that it was Guadalajara, which was really good, uh, which is obviously close to Tequila. Then after Guadalajara, we went to Cabo San Lucas, Baja, we went there to try the perfect fish taco because I wanted to put a Baja fried fish taco on the menu.

That's my favourite.

It's a lot of people's favourite here as well now. It was a long flight just to try a taco, but it was worth it. Then after that it was Mexico City.

I have Mexican friends, and hearing them talk about going back home and one guy was talking about like a whole cow buried and cooked in the ground. And making the tacos from that. Were there things that surprised you?

A hundred percent. Absolutely. Everything took me by surprise. The whole pig or the whole lamb or the whole cow buried Barbacoa style where they cover it in rocks and then just leave it to cook overnight. It's fantastic. Obviously we can't do that here on the river. I wish, but I have put a barbacoa style dish on the menu, but it's just pot roasted which is still quite synonymous with how they do it.

What region is that from?

Honestly, I'm not a hundred percent sure where it originates. We ate really good barbacoa just outside of Mexico City though. We met some guys in a plate factory there, and they took us around the area. Fantastic barbecue.

And if you'd thought about making tacos before your trip, how different is your idea of tacos having been to Mexico?

Substantially different. Obviously I'd never been before and all I knew was from restaurants around Melbourne. You go to Mexico and you get a tortilla and they slap on some slow cooked meat, and then that's it. And then they send you off to your table. Then they've got these veritable selections of condiments and salsas. The useability of that was really interesting. It is definitely something we tried to implement in the menu here. But it was really different. You don't get these really complex tacos. You go to a more Tex-Mex sort of place over here and it's a lot more complex. We wanted just simple good ingredients done well,

I spoke to a guy over in Brunswick who has Los Hermanos. He's Mexican and was saying it is commonplace for Mexicans to know which sauce goes with which taco and it's a particular one. They would just have the salsa and sauces out for people to serve themselves from a common dish, but we can't do that here. It's interesting, isn't it?

It is. It's such a shame because, and that was really a directive that I received, was we want to bring that Mexican feel of customising your own tacos, but unfortunately there would be so much salsa thrown away. We do have a chef selection taco plate, and then you get a condiment tray along with it with multiple different salsas, like Pico de Gallo and a Chipotle salsa, burnt tomatillo, so people can have a bit of fun with it. Just trying to bring it the feel, but also not wasting too much and thinking about cost too.

Exactly right. That's so much fun. The whole thing with Afloat, is it's really capturing an essence and an experience. And with this balmy weather, I can already see, it's going to be a big summer here, isn't it? It's always a big summer here.

The guys who set this place up and they did the design work, I think they've really done a sensational job. It's so colourful, it's so vibrant. When we were in Tulum, I was thinking, I'm not sure how much we're going to take from here, but then it's all in the design, you know?

I've always wanted to go to Mexico. I haven't yet got there.

You should definitely go. Although I did drink some of the tap water on the first night.

Big mistake.

Big mistake. I know.

How long did it last?

Pretty much the whole time really. I think for the last four days I was up to it. But anyway, I persevered through. I couldn't miss out.

That's really unlucky. You have to eat all the food, don't you? Now James, you've been with the group for a few years now and you've worked your way up to your current Executive chef position.

Yes, six years. I started at Arbory, as chef de partie on the main section. It seems crazy now, honestly. Then I quickly rose through the ranks. I was head chef up there maybe three years ago. And thenI spoke to the boss and I said, look, I really want a new challenge. Its great up there. It's still challenging, but I want something to really develop myself. And that's when the role of overseeing the two of them came about. Its so incredibly exciting with this venue down here how it changes every year, but also having to juggle that and liaising with my staff up there. It's a really good challenge.

It's a big step up, isn't it? I don't mean this any in any kind of condescending way, but you look young and so to be the captain of the team. You were a head chef already, of course, but what, what is your leadership style?

This is something that is actually one of my biggest driving factors. I think I really, I just want people to want to come to work. I want them to want to work for me. If they want to come to work and work for me, they're going to work harder. They're going to work better. I feel like I'm very open. I am young, you know, and I'm probably a lot younger than most people in this role, so I have to be reflective of the fact that these chefs who are maybe older than me, more experienced, they have a lot of stuff to give me. But I've got stuff to give them, and it's about managing that relationship. That's really my ethos.

It's the way of the world now, isn't it, to be considerate of other people and to work as a team. Wellbeing is a really big part of it all.

100 per cent. We talk about how we structure the rosters here. When I started it was like every other hospitality business where you're doing doubles and singles, but now, you know, theres a huge shift towards people getting paid for what they're doing. I think it's amazing. And I 100% with all my heart believe that we get the same amount out of our staff when they do five eight hour shifts than when they're doing doubles. Because they're fresh, they're energized, they're engaged when they're here. I think that's what we want. And they've got a better life outside of work as well. That's what we want for the team. And that's what I want for myself.

Absolutely. Hospitality is often evening work and weekends, but it's about getting that balance, I guess, isn't it? And I often think too, hospitality is about giving the diners and the public a really good time, but it shouldn't be at the cost of the staff. Are you still on the pans?

Absolutely. This is the thing. If I go three, four weeks without it and obviously going into opening Afloat, there's a lot of paperwork, a lot of costing, a lot of writing this and that. You don't really get in the kitchen too easily. Then as soon as I get a shift back in the kitchen, I throw myself in the deep end. That's why I'm a chef. That's what I love. I love the stress and the pressure. I love the drive, so although I do really enjoy my role, those shifts where I'm in the kitchen and I'm on the main section or I'm running the pass, those are what really invigorate me.

I read that it started early for you. You were 16 when you started washing dishes and you worked out that you enjoyed washing dishes more than school.

Well, I think I liked anything more than school, honestly. Absolutely anything. But definitely even washing dishes was much preferable. Which is a bit of a sign really, isn't it, that school's not the right thing.

As a teacher, I've got to acknowledge that school is not for everyone. No, it's not for everyone.And nor should it be.

I was 16 and then after three months washing dishes, and I didn't last long on the dishes, I was already a bit bored of it. I said, what, what else have we got? And I started making sandwiches and wraps because it was in a production kitchen for a larger chain of San Fran style healthy food restaurants. I was making the wraps. And then one day the boss just came to me and asked me if I wanted to do this for a job? I thought, actually, maybe I do. So moved me to commis chef in one of the flagship restaurants. After two years I was head chef.

What is it that you loved and still love about it?

100 per cent is the stress. It's the pressure. It's the adrenaline.I can't deny that. But also, I just love food. I love eating food. I love cooking food. The feeling when someone walks past and says, thanks chef, that meal was great. It's such a drive. You get one of those a week and you're driven for the whole week. Fortunately we do get more than one a week, but it's so rewarding. Or even when a staff member comes in and tries the new menu and they say, wow, we want to sell that, it's so motivating.

I've just been listening to a podcast, I don't know if you've heard of Hugh Van Cuylenberg. He has a podcast called The Imperfects and he talks to different people about resilience and working through things. It's a very honest show. I just listened to him in conversation with Ben Shewry from Attica and Ben was saying that cooking is all about people and then if you don't like people, you probably can't be a great chef. Would you agree with that?

I think that's a very fair statement. If you're not managing the people right to do what you need them to do, then how's it going to work out in the long run? I agree. We always joke as chefs about being in the kitchen because we don't like dealing with customers. Or at least I joke about that, but honestly, when I get the chance to talk to a customer or do a staff training, I love it.

So you enjoy the stress. Obviously you can streamline everything in the kitchen, but as you say, it's usually hot in the kitchen and you are loving all that, but how do you actually get through a whole service of that high level of adrenaline?

You have to have someone that is motivating and driving. I feel like I'm the motivator and always full of positivity. Taking a break is important. A 32 second break is not going to make any difference to someone waiting 20 minutes for their meal. Take a break, collect yourself, and then motivate your team. Turn the fan off, ask if anyone wants a drink. Its all about just motivating, and motivating yourself as well to want to be there and do it.

It sounds like you are thinking of other people. You're not just thinking, I need a break, everyone shut up.

No, absolutely not. It's a communal break.

Because I also think that happy kitchens make happy diners. I haven't spoken about this for a while, but for a period of time, I was bringing this up in every conversation, but there's a book called Like Water for Chocolate, and it's the translation of a Spanish book where the woman who's cooking, whatever her emotions at the time of cooking are, the people eating the food then have that same feeling. I feel as though I want to know that it's a harmonious kitchen.

That's a great way to think about it.

I want to be eating good food that come from good places.

I totally agree.

What brought you to Australia? What part of England are you from?

I'm from Leeds in the north of England. I came to Australia originally for six months, which is often the way. I had no idea that I was going to stay this long, but after six months, I just knew that I couldn't go. So me and my partner did our farm work, picked lemons in Bundaberg. It was excruciating, my God, and also incredibly fun. You know, you're in the same situation with all these people. It was beautiful. The camaraderie as well. It was like being in a kitchen. Everyone's in this hard situation, but they have a joint goal and it's great.

I still think it's a weird situation. I'm a New Zealander, so I don't have to do any of that and the farm thing seems like a funny rule, but would you say in retrospect, it's a good thing to have done?

For me, I would not exchange it, because I met one of my best friends there, and you are in that hard situation, and it's great. I loved it.

Lemons in Bundaberg, I would've thought ginger.

You would because of the ginger ale. There was a lot of ginger ale, but, no, it was picking lemons.

And excruciating because it's hot or because you've got a certain amount of lemons to pick?

Very hot long days. Very demanding. Then after that I moved on sweet potatoes and oh my God. Digging sweet potatoes. I'm very tall and I wasn't sure my back was going to last. But you get used to it in the end.

Are you paid by the hour or by the yield?

Lemons is by the yield. So the harder you work, the more you get. And then potatoes is by the hour. So pick your poison really.

I guess you're putting your brain on pause while you're doing that kind of job, and then you're just also enjoying being in Queensland.

Exactly. Beforehand, I was in senior management roles as a chef. I know I was young, but I was, and but then in that job, you finish digging your potatoes, they blow the whistle and you just sit back and you don't think about anything. You just think about getting back to the bar to a jug of very cheap beer and that's it.

And then why Melbourne?

I feel like that's a tricky question. I don't want to offend anyone from Sydney or Queensland. I don't love the heat. I like it when it's cold in winter. I'm honestly the happiest when I get to wear a coat. The 40-degree days in Melbourne, they're tough days for me. But on top of that, there's the food scene here, I've never felt more at home anywhere else.

In terms of your passion and love for food, obviously the Mexico trip was really inspiring. Where else do you get your inspiration? Are you on Instagram? Do you have cookbooks? Well, you probably don't have cookbooks having just moved here.

I have a huge collection of cookbooks here.

Ah, so definitely not going home anytime soon.

Well, I just bought an apartment four months ago. So, no. I love cookbooks. Not necessarily to follow the recipes, but I love just reading the ideas that everyone else has. I'm a big reader. Instagram is good. I have it, but it's not really my thing, but I'm big reader. In terms of other inspiration, that's why I'm in Melbourne. You just look around you, every corner you turn, there's a new piece of inspiration. Every restaurant is doing something different. Every pub is doing something different. And that's what I think is so amazing.

I looked at your Instagram and you're not a big poster.

No. I keep being told I have to get better.

But I really was struck by how curious about life you seem. It seemed like anywhere you were, you were just loving being there and I think that's really important.

You have to hold onto the little things, you know? Otherwise, life will just get you down, there's positive in everything everywhere you go. If it's a staycation for two days, that might be the best two days I had in three months. I am a big traveller; I love to travel. It's originally why we came here. I can't believe I've been just here now for eight years, but I'm not sad about it. I originally came because I love to travel and I want to see new places. But that's the great thing about Arbory, we're such a seasonal venue. In winter I could go and take six weeks off and the owners would say, fantastic. Have a great time. That's a really, really big benefit of working here as well.

Yes. All the times that I've dealt with owners and the staff here, for example, once they asked me to write about the river and about the relationship with the Wurundjeri people, the original custodians on this land that was never ceded and I really loved that. I love that they're really into where they are, but also the research trips and really finding out about the actual places they want to represent.

Picking the places apart and seeing the best in them and how we can bring that best here. Bring the best out of the river. It's really fantastic.

So we've established that you're young and so on, but you have packed a lot in and you've had senior roles. So what would your advice be to a young person starting off as a chef?

You know, that's really funny. I always think back to when I first suggested that I wanted to become a commis chef in a restaurant. One of the owners of the company came to me and said, just stop. Do you actually care about food? Do you actually have a passion for eating, for cooking? Do you see stuff on this bench and say, what can I do with that? He said, you really have to have that passion, otherwise don't bother. Because it's not easy.There's a lot of hard work ahead, but if you have that passion, then it will be unbelievably rewarding for you. That's something that I think about regularly actually. Even now, 14 years after he told me that.

How do you cultivate that passion on the hard days? It's hard to always feel passionate.

Absolutely. That's the base. But a 100 per cent of course it's hard to motivate. A few Christmases back, I was on the pass and I was just having the worst day ever, and I was banging my hands on the pass going, this is the worst Christmas I've ever had. But you just have to look past those moments of frustration and see why you got into it. See past the frustration and maybe you're disappointed in yourself but just look past that and think why have I pursued this? Why did I decide to get into this? And just focus on that.

Afloat Viva Mexico, 1 Flinders Walk, Melbourne