John Paul showed me round the beautifully revamped Carlton Wine Room after our chat and I can see I will have to come back multiple times just to dine in all the different spaces. Either that or do some kind of progressive dinner and just move around between dishes. John Paul is one of those chefs who hit the ground running early in his career and because of his commitment and creativity has always worked with good people and produced beautiful food. Looking at his menu, I know that I will definitely be back multiple times and quite possibly doing a progressive dinner every time.
Hi John Paul. It’s such a beautiful place here. I was reading that, rather than going fine dining, you’re going for a neighbourhood bistro feel.
Yes, approachable food.
I looked at the menu and it still looks pretty fancy.
It might sound fancy but it’s pretty simple on the plate. It’s not fancy, fancy. There are three or four elements in a dish, there’s no fiddly plating up. It’s all about flavour, quality and quantity. It’s all about consistency. That’s the main thing. You can come for a special occasion or you can come three nights a week. You can get a bowl of pasta for $22 every night or you can come and have a $55 Wagyu steak. It just depends on what you want. That’s why the bar area is good. It’s separated from the dining room. The dining room is more of a special occasion and the bar you can come every day of the week and just have a drink and a snack. It’s easy and accessible.
Did you have a clean slate when you came here in terms of what you wanted on the menu?
More or less. It was down to Andy and Travis as well because they’re the owners. Basically, it’s about approachable food that goes with wine. There’s not a lot of chilli so it doesn’t conflict with a nice bottle of wine. We designed the food around the wine. We did the wine list and then we chose the food around that. There’s a big wine emphasis here.
I went somewhere else and they talked about that and how it is quite different to do the wine first and then the food. Often it’s the other way around.
If you get the balance wrong, like if you order a $300 Burgundy and you have a dish full of chilli, it won’t be good. If you’re spending money, you want to be able to taste the wine.
You were ten years with the McConnell Group.
Ten years with Andrew, yes.
Then not even a year at Gilson.
I was at Gilson for eight or nine months.
Then you came here. It must be quite different.
Well we have all come from being part of a big group thing. The big group is good but it’s good to get away and branch out and do something different. It’s back to something small. Big groups are quite structured and quite repetitive sometimes. We’ve all had a really good experience but here it is like a clean slate.
Andy and Travis are on the floor, so we have two owners on the floor, which is really good. Usually you just have the chef in the kitchen and the manager is an employee too. It’s really good having those two out there. It’s probably the best front of house I’ve worked with in Melbourne.
Before you were with Andrew, what were you doing?
I arrived here from Ireland on New Year’s Eve, 2000.
Wow, that’s really the way to start a new century.
I worked for Paul Wilson at Radii at the Park Hyatt for about six months and then I worked with Paul to open the Botanical when Chris Lucas had it. I was with Paul and Chris for two and a half years and then I went to Circa when Andrew took over from Michael Lambie. That’s when I started working for Andrew, Christmas, 2005. Then I went to Three, One, Two as head chef, Cutler & Co as head chef and then stepped out as Development Chef across the group, overseeing all the kitchens.
What does being a Development Chef actually involve?
Coming up with menu items, helping the guys, offering a fresh pair of eyes in the restaurants. I’d move around the four restaurants; a week here, a week there. I helped train young guys, worked on menu ideas, worked with suppliers. It was mainly menu ideas. When you’re in the kitchen all the time, you’re really busy and you get tunnel vision. Having a fresh pair of eyes can help you see things you’re not seeing.
It’s a big part of being a head chef, isn’t it, the training aspect. What is your style? Do you have more of a showing style, or a telling one?
Show and tell. You have to be a bit of both. As I’ve got older, I’ve become more mature and easier to deal with but I think, especially for the young people, you have to show them, tell them, watch them do it. The big thing is consistency, showing them and explaining why you do it a certain way and the reasons behind it. Maybe even putting up a dish that doesn’t taste very good and getting them to taste it. If it’s too salty, they always taste that so then they know. Everyone makes mistakes, but unless you tell them and show them, they’ll keep on doing it. You have to be forgiving at times. Shit happens, especially in busy restaurants. At Supernormal we had 25 chefs on the roster. The big thing is that everything has to be standardized and consistent so it just flows, otherwise it’s chaos.
Do you think that anyone can be a chef?
No. I don’t think so.
So what are you looking for?
What I’m looking for is commitment and a desire to learn and a good attitude. No jokers or dickheads or arrogant people. We’ve got a few guys in the kitchen and they don’t have qualifications, but they have the desire. They have a hunger and they’re not dickheads. They just really want to do it. They put their head down and get on with it.
It’s interesting that you used that word, hunger, because I was just wondering before whether people these days have that hunger.
Yes and no, 10 per cent have it. It’s a hard job. There are lots of other jobs paying more money now. I think the problem in Melbourne now is you have lots of cafes. The café culture is quite big and some of the food is good and some of it isn’t but they pay pretty well and you get nights off and have a better roster so it’s hard to get people to come into real kitchens and do the hard graft.
I guess when you find them, you really want to hold onto them.
Here, we try and get everyone on 45-50 hours. Everyone is on three days off and four days on so it’s three doubles and a single and you always get two days off together then split the other days; two days on, one day off. It’s really good.
That’s great.
Everyone makes mistakes, but unless you tell them and show them, they’ll keep on doing it. You have to be forgiving at times. Shit happens, especially in busy restaurants. The big thing is that everything has to be standardized and consistent so it just flows, otherwise it’s chaos.
And did you always want to be a chef?
Yes. I started cooking when I was 14. My uncle has a restaurant in Ireland. I wasn’t very good at school, so it wasn’t an easy way out but it was something I liked and I didn’t look back. I left school when I was 16, went to culinary school and came here when I was 19.
Wow, so you weren’t far into your cooking career when you came here and you did really well straight away.
I think I got lucky. And if you put your head down and you get in with the right people, they take care of you. I was sponsored by Paul and that was it really. I think if you show initiative and just put your head down, you can go far.
The food culture would have really changed here over that time.
Definitely. Kitchens are probably a lot calmer. Head chefs have to talk to their staff a lot differently, you have to spend time with them and you can’t just expect them to know what to do. I think it’s great. Kitchens are probably a lot nicer to work in now. Lots of people are trying to make kitchens a better environment to work in.
I’m sure it’s about the whole experience. If you’re a shouty chef, then you raise negative energy in yourself as well as in others.
I used to be one of those chefs, when I was young and silly.
I’m sure it’s better for everyone to produce food from a place of calm. Where do you get your ideas?
I read lots of books, go online, go for dinner. I’ve always been creative, which is good. Management is something that is more challenging, I’m good at it, but I’m better on the creative side. A lot of chefs are like that. Some chefs are really creative but struggle with the admin side. I read stuff. I never steal anything but I get ideas. I don’t like people who copy stuff off Instagram. You see the same stuff in different places. I try and do food that’s a little different. It’s more about flavour for me. I write ideas down and I might have three ideas for dishes and take bits from all of them to only make one dish. It’s trial and error. You might have a really good idea on paper but it doesn’t work. There are lots of elements. When you design a dish, you have to think about how it will work for the kitchen. You won’t put a dish on that fucks service. You have to be smart about it. Anybody can put a dish on but you have to think about how it reflects on the kitchen as well. Happy chefs, happy kitchen.
Do you enjoy eating your own food?
You have to eat it otherwise you don’t know.
This is a new idea for me that came after speaking to Khan at Sunda because he doesn’t like eating his own food because he is so critical of it.
I think Khan is really good. He’s young and he is critical. He’s really pushing the boundaries. His food is amazing. I think he’s just that kind of guy.
But you’re happy to eat your food? I want chefs to want to eat the food they’re making.
I’m not going to come here on my day off and eat but I’ll always taste it. You have to taste the dishes. Especially if you have something on the menu like a signature dish, you have to keep trying it because people keep coming for it. We’ve got potato focaccia here with pickled mushrooms and green oil. You have to balance the dish. The dish doesn’t work if the mushrooms aren’t pickled properly or the stracciatella is too wet or the green oil isn’t made properly. If people keep coming back for it, it has to be the same all the time.
You have to taste. Because people get tired or don’t read recipes sometimes or people just do stupid things for no reason and then if you haven’t tasted it, you can send out ten portions of crap. You can’t get everything, but you have to try your best.
How does something become a signature dish? Do you decide that?
The customers decide. You never decide that. Like with Andrew, the lobster roll, you don’t know until you put it on and then you can’t take it off the menu. The focaccia will probably never come off here because people like it. The duck and pork croquettes are popular. People decide. When we were opening, people were asking what the signature dish would be, and I told them, you can’t decide that. It’s up to the customers. I don’t think anyone writes a menu and thinks oh this will be the signature dish.
Do you get sick of making it?
Yes and no. You refine it and tweak it. But the big thing still is consistency.
What if your product isn’t consistent? Do you have to make allowances for different parts to the season when the vegetables might taste different?
Yes you do. Our stracciatella might be too wet sometimes and we have to send it back. But we can substitute it with ricotta. You have to have something up your sleeve as back up. You have to change seasonally. We do a really nice tomato salad with anchovy dressing, but you can only make it in summer. Everyone raves about it, but you’re not going to serve it in winter, people can wait. I think that’s good as well. Summer is really good for vegetables and winter is different.
Do you still get surprised by flavour? By another chef’s dish or a product?
Yes, for sure. The guys at Bar Saracen, next to Sunda, Tom cooks really good food, it’s amazing. He does this really great cheese thing, it’s like a dessert, with a really really short pastry filled with cheese and they serve it on dried fig chutney. It’s fucking amazing. Really sweet and really delicious. It’s really good. I haven’t tried Khan’s food, but I really want to try it. Everyone says it’s really flavoursome. But yeah, you’re always surprised. It’s good. I don’t like chefs who are haters and go everywhere and don’t like anyone else’s food. You have to be open to new things.
Is there a community amongst chefs in Melbourne?
There definitely is now. More than there was years ago. Everyone is pretty good friends. I’m friends with Dave at Embla and good friends with Victor. That’s the way it should be; sharing instead of being dickheads who keep everything to themselves. It’s nice.
Listen to the conversation here.
172-174 Faraday Street, Carlton