On the afternoon after a huge Valentine’s Day evening service of 275 covers, Josh Rudd is calm and looking forward to Friday night service at Asado. I appreciated Josh’s honesty and just really lovely way of seeing cooking, working in a team and dealing with stress.
Hi Josh. You’re not long back from travelling. Are you from Melbourne?
Yes, grew up in the suburbs in the Dandenongs and worked out there when I was young and moved into the city for work when I got my licence. I always lived out there and only recently moved to Bentleigh.
I’ve been traveling for two years. I had about 12 months off work, which was amazing, but you do start to lose a bit of that routine. It’s nice to get back into it again. I went to Norway. I had some friends there who said if I wanted to go, there was a job there for me. So I did. Me and my partner worked there for eight months. It was a bit strange because we were doing American barbecue in Norway with five Australians. It was a bit obscure, but the Norwegian food scene is a bit behind. We were doing fairly simple American barbecue but for them it was mind-blowing.
It’s funny when something takes off here, you assume it’s a worldwide thing, but maybe not so much.
It’s kinda like that smashed avocado movement when it went into Bali. You can go to Bali and get the Herald Sun and have smashed avocado.
So much for exploring local culture in Bali. Were you able to explore some of the other aspects of Norwegian food, in terms of foraging and curing and so on?
Yeah. There’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t grow there because of the climate so there is a lot of cured and pickled and fermented stuff. A lot of the fine dining places capture it when it’s in prime time and put it in a jar or cure it or salt it. I experienced that in the restaurants. A lot of the food is quite simple unless you go to the fine dining end. It’s a magic place to live when you immerse yourself in the life. Walking to work and it’s minus 20 and snowing and all the Norwegians are upset about it and al the Australians are smiling and loving the experience.
How long were you there?
Eight months. It was good but then you realise how good Melbourne is when you’re away for almost two years so we thought we’d come back. I didn’t have a job to come back to so I did a bit of American barbecue again with a friend at Bluebonnet. Then I was waiting for the right job to come and here we are.
And you’re still working with big bits of meat.
Yes, you can see a trend here, it’s very meat-focused. This is the pride and joy (indicates the dry ageing cabinet). We have one of the biggest spaces in Melbourne for dry ageing meat.
Did you have much experience with Argentinian food?
No, I can’t say that I did. I haven’t been to Argentina or experienced much of it, but I did a lot of research in terms of Argentinian cooking. It’s quite simple. They use a lot of cheaper cuts cooked simply. They light a fire in the backyard and cook half a lamb. That’s how they do it and we try and replicate that but with a little bit of polish.
In terms of vegetables, are they seasonal?
Yes, they are seasonal there. Argentina is so long that they can source most things. Half of Argentina can be covered in snow while it’s 40 degrees somewhere else. Quite similar to us, I suppose. But the meat and the fire are the focus. Whether it’s the grill or the firepit. Every dish tries to touch the fire in some way, whether it’s burnt or fire-roasted.
I’ve spoken to chefs cooking with fire and they talk about having to get used to the heat and the getting used to consistency of wood and charcoal. I guess it’s different with every cultural use of fire. With American barbecue, it’s low and slow…
Yes and not direct heat so the fire is off to the side and you’re drawing the smoke through. We are putting charcoal in a hot box and letting that burn until it gets quite hot and then shovelling that under the grill – the grill winds up and down – so red hot coals under the grill. There’s no naked flame. We use steak with a high fat content, but they don’t flare up. The grill has a small tit on it and the fat runs off. We put red hot coals under it and it caramelises really well. Once you cook with charcoal, there’s no going back.
Did it take a while to get used to?
Not really. I’d cooked with open fire before using red gum. It was different because you have to be cautious about the fat dripping into the fire and flaring up so here it’s a lot easier. It takes a while to get used to the heat here because the hot box runs at 1100-1200 degrees. Our thermometer doesn’t read it. We estimate that’s the heat.
What kind of wood are you using?
Red gum and ironbark. The charcoal is mostly red gum and the fire pit is red gum and ironbark.
How long have you been a chef?
I was 16 when I started, so 15 years. I started young. I decided when I was younger and the VCE conversation came up. Do you want to do VCE? Do I have to do VCE to be a chef? And the careers people at high school said not really. They said it was obviously going to be good for my education but it wouldn’t be that beneficial in terms of hospitality, so I did VCAL, which was a meeting in the middle; a day at school, a day at TAFE and three or four days at work when I was 16. So I was straight into it, working upwards of 30-40 hours, and going to school and trade school all at once. It was a really good learning curve and by the time my friends finished school, I was in the third year of my apprenticeship. I felt as though I had a head start because I made my decision early.
It must have been difficult at that age. Nowadays it seems to be so hard to get people to become chefs because of the long hours and missing out on a social life.
It was difficult, trying to get there after work, saying I’d be there but then missing out. I missed countless eighteenths and twenty-firsts because of that. As you grow up, you begin to realise that work is just work and you start to prioritise other things. In my early twenties, I prioritised work and I paid the price for it from a social point of view and lost some friends along the way, but it’s what you do I guess.
What is it about cooking, then, that kept you in it, despite all that?
The creativity. I don’t think I could do anything else. I thought about doing front of house or being a barista or something else but it just doesn’t invigorate me at all. It’s the thrill of the service. Last night we did 275 covers and it was mayhem, but we had a laugh and had a good time.
How do you deal with that? You’re working with extreme heat and intense volume…
It’s high pressure. I try and think about it like I am the head of the ship, I suppose, and I take all the stress from wherever it is coming from and try to filter it and then spread it out where I need to. I tell the boys and girls in there, if you see me stressing, then you can stress, but until that happens, just do your job.
Were you stressing last night?
No. I was having fun. At the end of the day it’s only one day. Service will end. I try and be as honest as I can with front of house and the customers. If a mistake happens, then I send front of house out to say this is what has happened, this is how I can solve it, these are the options. If you’re honest…you know, people try and fool people and these days you can’t trick anyone. If someone orders a medium steak and it’s rare or well done, that person is going to have a bad time. I prefer if the steak is over-cooked, wait 20 minutes while we redo it and have the best steak of our life and you’ll forget you waited 20 minutes.
As a customer, there is nothing worse than not knowing what is happening and waiting for ages and being ignored. I’d rather know and then I’m happy.
Yes, if everyone is just avoiding you, you wonder what is going on. I’ve found in the past that if I send someone to the table and say the chef isn’t happy with your steak and he’s making you a fresh one, 9.9 out of 10 times, the customer is even happier with that because he knows the chef cares about their steak.
I try and think about it like I am the head of the ship, I suppose, and I take all the stress from wherever it is coming from and try to filter it and then spread it out where I need to…At the end of the day it’s only one day. Service will end.
Have you been a head chef before?
Yes. I was head chef when I was 23 for a pub down the road. I got my break. I was a sous chef and the head chef resigned. Actually, I had a hard time when I was young, I’d get settled and then the head chef would move on or the business would be sold, or something would happen. I had five or six jobs over nine to twelve months where I had to pack up my things and move. It gets annoying. In this case, my head chef said she was going, it’s not for me, but I was pretty happy and I thought what was I going to do, where would I go. The owner came to me and said, I reckon you can do it. I said I’d need to think about it, because obviously I was 23. I had, by that stage, 7 years experience, but the biggest thing for me as a head chef is you have to answer all the questions and know where to get those answers. You can’t bluff anyone. If something goes wrong, it’s on you. That was my biggest fear, but he said he would mentor me and support me, which he kind of did but he also threw me in.
I remember one Friday night, on one of my first services, and he was a chef, he stood at the door of the kitchen ad he watched us sink. It was a really hard service. There were no major issues but it was a hard service and it would have helped if there had been more people. When it was over I said to him, why didn’t you help me? I was having a really hard time. He said, if I had helped you, would you have learned anything? And I said, well I guess not. From that time, I have used that myself. I’ve watched people struggle…within reason, obviously…but they’ve then asked me why I didn’t help them. I’ve told them that they need to work it out for themselves. It works pretty much every time.
Do you have to guide people through that reflection? I imagine some people might not learn but just be resentful.
Nine out of ten times they come through it and realise what they should have done. And from the other side I can counsel them a bit and tell them that they did well working through it, but maybe next time try this, or maybe just that they did really well. A lot of people have the tendency to lose their head in a stressful environment and it’s easy to do but you have to remain calm and relaxed and that’s what I try and convey, that demeanour. It will all be over soon.
I like that. This too will pass. Do you have much free reign with the menu or does the fact that Asado is part of a group mean that some things are decided for you?
A lot of the meats from the grill are the same or similar to the rest of the group. They are cuts they have spent years working on and know they are a consistent premium cut. But in terms of seasonality and availability, me and Ollie (Gould) work together on building the menu. For example we are doing a change tomorrow because we are using peaches and peaches are going out of season, so we have to talk to the vege supplier and find out what is coming in as a good swap. We have free rein with what goes in the ageing cabinet. I have a good relationship with suppliers. They text me to tell me what they have in. For example, this big piece of Moondarra wagyu. There are only four pieces of that meat available each year from Neil Prentice. That’s where a supplier calls us and says, I know you’ll do a good job with this, so do you want it, here’s the price.
I like that the suppliers are being discerning like that.
They can afford to be. That other piece is Sher wagyu. I’ve known Vicki (Sher) for years now and she texts or calls me to tell me what she’s got. Sometimes she gets beef that’s got a higher marbling than she charges. Other time she has stuff she wants to move and if I need it, I’ll take it. She helps me out, I help her out. It’s good.
It feels as though there is a chain of goodness happening going into the food. You’ve got a good relationship with the supplier and then there’s good things going on in the kitchen and you enjoy it. I feel as though we must be able to taste that.
Of course. Everyone has eaten a bad meal and I feel like that does come from negative energy. When you enjoy what you do and everyone in there enjoys themselves then you are going to care about what you do.
How long would that side last, or how many people would it feed?
There are rib eyes that end and strip loins down the other end, then there’s the rump…it’s Argentine beef, so the whole side. That would probably feed 50 people. We’ll dry age that for 30 to 40 days to intensify the flavour. Then it will be amazing.
When you were traveling, was part of it for you to try different flavours?
Definitely. I did Asia first. A lot of my friends did it in their mid-twenties when I was working 80 hours and missing social events and not going on holiday. I just wanted to go and travel, not work and eat. I ate and ate. It was amazing. We went through Asia and Sri Lanka.
Do you document what you eat?
You just kind of remember. You eat something sometimes and think, I have no idea how you made that, but it’s amazing. Even a Sri Lankan backyard where you’re eating marlin caught 2 hours earlier and I’m not sure what they did to it, but it was amazing. It’s something you can’t replicate. It’s one of those things, you’re there and it’s great and that’s it.
A lot of my background was French training from English chefs and people trained in France, so going to France for a month was great and then a month in Spain. We made sure we were in Air BnBs with kitchens and went to farmers’ markets and bought prosciutto and baguette and rotisserie chicken. Through the south of Spain they have that Moroccan influence coming in. I didn’t really expect that. I didn’t realise geographically how close Spain and Africa were, so getting all those African flavours and then moving to Barcelona and going to Tickets and to Hoja Santa, which has two Michelin stars, it was phenomenal. It was a night event, not just dinner. We were there for four hours, it didn’t feel like it, and it was faultless.
Apart from traveling, how do you get ideas for food?
I like buying books. My cookbook selection is big. Moving them all into storage when we went traveling was astronomical; kilos and kilos of books. Books and eating out. Also Instagram and the internet; hearing about a new restaurant that has opened in Argentina or speaking to Argentinian staff here or at other of our venues…We did some chicken livers the other week and my initial thought with my French training was to make chicken liver parfait, but in this case we marinated them and grilled them over the fire and they were amazing, completely different. I like looking up different flavour combinations that work and different methods, cooking slow or cooking quick over fire. I’ve just started roasting potatoes in the fire. You put them in for two hours, straight in the fire. Some of the non-Argentinians questioned that, but we put them in the fire covered in coals. It’s really good to experience all that.
And seasonal eating. We are taking this off tomorrow but we have had a heirloom and peach salad on. I’d had peaches with tomato before, but we put them on the barbecue to blacken them. Then we chill them and scrape off the black and it’s almost as though they are poached in sugar syrup because their natural sugars come out and it changes the whole concept of the dish. You get a flavour combination and make it your own by twisting it a little bit; grilling it or smoking it or doing something else with it.
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