Jung Eun Chae

Conversation with a chef: Congratulations on keeping the two hats, and Besha Rodell's review was amazing.

Yoora: We haven't seen it yet. We're going out to the city after this, so we might just grab a copy. We can't wait. It was kind of Besha to write such a great review.

Well, I don't know that she is kind, because she's very honest. I think that she writes what she observes, and she's got a lot of experience. So, I think if she is saying good things, then that's true.

Yoora: We had no idea she came. We had a request to arrange a date for an LA Times critic. because he was travelling to Melbourne as part of the Melbourne Food and Wine Festival and we had a request from Visit Victoria to possibly arrange a place for him. We had happened to have two available seats.

Wow. The LA Times. Is that story already out as well?

Yoora: I'm not sure if he was visiting for the story. I don't know the details of his visit, but I just had an email from Visit Victoria. besha might have been with him. We just presume maybe, because there was a lady guest that came with him. We can can only assume it was that day that she came.

That's interesting because we talked last week about the problem that some people have with the booking system. Even though it's a really fair booking system. But this points to the fact that there weren't any strings pulled to accommodate Besha coming. You had two places come up and, why wouldn't you say yes to the LA Times?

Yoora: Exactly.

I saw some of the comments on Instagram, and now because I'm your fierce and loyal supporter, I had to stop myself replying to some people. As you said, when you started with that system of the lottery bookings, it was to try and be the most fair to everybody.

Yoora: I know you can't, please everyone, but we strongly believe this larger system is transparent and open and fair for everyone, because, as I said before, before the lottery, it literally meant people setting up their alarm, 7p.m., first Monday of every month, and sitting in front of their computer, and just fiercely clicking, trying to secure a booking. Even so hundreds of people failed.

Chae: And most people were in their early twenties.

Yoora: Before the lottery, the demographic was a younger demographic, who are quite tech savvy. Then what people ended up doing after failing the attempt to book, they turned to emails and they just sent us all these questions about whether ourwebsite was working or not. How is it even possible? I log into your website at 7 p.m. Nothing's available. Something must be wrong. That took a lot of time answering each email. It wasnt working for us and it wasnt working for them.

And then there was the person that hacked the system.

Yoora: Apparently it was a fresh graduate with an IT degree. I don't know how IT works, but they ran a bot, that's what they call it, and then apparently they could secure all these bookings simultaneously so that nobody else can get in. Then we thought, if a fresh graduate can do this, I'm sure everybody can bypass the system. So that's why we introduced the lottery. It was meant to be just a temporary measure during that high demand, but thankfully, I guess, we managed to maintain the lottery system.

Well, you're still in high demand. I feel like it's interesting actually to come back again this week because you're in the media spotlight again. I feel like the high demand is going to continue, isn't it? But I think for me, what made me the most angry about some of the comments, because a lot of the comments are really positive, of course, people really love what you're doing and very appreciative.

Yoora: We are very thankful and appreciative of them

Well, they appreciate you. But what made me annoyed was that you are so gentle and hospitable and you're welcoming people into your home and taking so much time over preparing a really beautiful dinner. I think it's a shame for people not to understand that.

Yoora: Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I guess they share those comments because they don't fully understand how we operate. I remember seeing one of these comments, oh, why can't you just expand to meet higher demand? You're just trying to be exclusive, trying to make it hard for everyone. If we do expand, then that means we lose our identity. We make our own traditional fermented condiments using traditional recipes and techniques that requires years of ageing and preparation. And that is only commercially variable in this setting, I believe, because if you think about it, it is an enormous space to store our condiments, the ferments. Those are massive clays jars that are sitting outside.

How many jars are there out there?

Yoora: We have 20 at the moment. They're a big job and there are 20 at the moment, but we are bringing additional 50 jars. That already is a lot of space and if you think about it from business perspective, space means money. I can't think of a conventional business investing in that empty space just a storing condiments without generating immediate revenue. We can do that because they're not causing an additional expense for us, because it's part of our residential property. We can do that, and it's added labour to take care of those ferments for extended periods of time. I'm talking about years and years, again, without generating immediate revenue. So it is very tricky in a conventional business setting and we are able to do all of that because we don't have any anybody working for us. That's without labour costs or wages.

Well, I think added to that, and we talked about this as well, is that you are not charging a huge amount of money. Compared to other degustations in the city, it's very reasonable for this beautiful experience and this food that has taken, as you say, years to prepare. I think that it's such a special thing. It would change the intimacy of it. Thats also part of the charm for people to be so close to you, Chae, as you're working and they can see what you're doing. If it was bigger, then that's a different kind of offering.

Yoora: Yes, it is completely a different kind of offering, and it would definitely change how we structure our pricing. We wouldnt be able to offer our dining experience at the same price level as we are currently offering. When we decided on our price point, it was a bit difficult to position ourselves in terms of pricing, because there was no reference. Five years ago, there were not many home-based restaurants, making homemade Korean condiments. We didn't take our wages and the labour costs into consideration. Essentially what we don't pay, customers shouldn't have to pay. That's how we decided our current price.

I still don't know really how you do it and make money. because it feels so reasonable to me. But let's to go back to the start then. You started this concept in your apartment in Brunswick. Naturally that was a small concept. How did that come about?

Chae: It was my dream since I started cooking. I saw the documentary about a Hong Kong lady running a one table business. Then it was in my mind for a really long time. I had a minor car accident. So I stopped working in commercial kitchens, because at that time in commercial kitchens you worked 17 hours a day. It was really hard for me with my weak ankle. I spoke to Yoora and said, maybe I'll just try what I want to do once a week, when he was at office.

What did you think when Chae had the idea?

Yoora: I didn't think much about it. I thought Chae was just in a transition period where she lost direction, because she was working hard to climb up the ladder in the fine dining scene. And then all of a sudden she lost the sense of direction and aim. I guess she was in a period where she was just trying a few things. I thought it was one of her ideas. I had my full-time job as a menswear designer back then. So I wasn't even around. So, why not? Just do it and see where it leads.

Can you remember the first time, the first dinner?

Chae: I was really nervous, so actually, I had one shot of gin before service, because it was my first time. It was fun, but it wasn't like a dining service. It was more like a workshop, so much easier, but I had to prepare their lunch after the workshop and I didn't know whether they liked it or not.

When we spoke last week, you were saying you initially thought you might teach people how to make your dishes. But people enjoyed eating the food more.

Chae: Also because I have a language barrier to teach my knowledge to everyone. Actually customers suggested that I should do dining, it's more worth it. So I said, oh, yes, let's try. It was really popular from the beginning.

I think it's interesting because if you were in kitchen's like Lume and some of those other ones where you're behind the scenes in the kitchen, it's quite a different thing to being right in front of people and having to communicate with them.

Chae: It's very different, but it's joyful and fun.

Before I came to visit you, I watched the Chef's Table episode where they follow Jeong Kwan and I thought it was such a beautiful episode. Everything about it is really beautiful and serene. She lives in the temple and cooks and she talks a lot about how she feels that you can communicate through food. So, I really like that you said that it feels joyful to be doing that and to be sharing with other people. Jeong Kwan lives near your mother in Korea and spent some time with her. Was that when you decided to do your own thing or was that before?

Chae: Before.

Did you just ask her, or does she do workshops normally or how did it come about?

Chae: I just went to her temple.

Yoora: There are many apprentices in the temple helping out with the chores and the errands.

So, you can just go and do that for a short period of time?

Chae: Yes, I just asked her, can I stay here work for you? She said, of course, she needed a lot of help anyway.

Compared to what you have going on out there with the pots, I saw in the documentary on Chef's Table, she has the big clay pots down in the ground and she was picking up the kimchi and tasting the sauce. I didn't actually see how big her production is. Does she have a lot of jars?

Chae: She doesn't have a big production because she needs only enough for her restaurant. She doesnt sell her soy sauce or soy bean paste. Its just big enough for all her visitors. She normally makes huge batches for her visitors.

How many does the restaurant seat?

Chae: When I was there, there was big event, so 300 people came at the same time, so we had to prepare their meals.

Were there things that surprised you when you were there? You grew up cooking with your mother and grandmother and they had some traditional techniques. Did you learn new and interesting things when you were at the temple?

Yoora: After working with the Jeong Kwan and working in the kitchen with everyone else, Chae came to the conclusion, if you set a mind to achieving something, you can always learn from everyone that surrounds you. Not necessarily a master. If you you are open to learn, you can always learn from your mum, you can always learn from your grandmother.

Chae: After I stayed at the temple, I realised my mum is real master. After the temple, I stayed with my mum for a couple months and then, can I say, I actually learned more?

That's interesting, isn't it? Because maybe that experience of being with a master made you realise what you wanted to know. When you grow up with your mother, perhaps you don't always notice that she's really excellent at doing that. You just eat her food and think, this is so good. And your mother would have a different style because the temple is vegan.

Chae: The temple is totally vegan and then they don't use garlic, ginger, onion. My mum has more of an old fashioned, traditional style. It is closely related to what I had.

Something that that really struck me too, about that episode of the show was the way that she spoke about soy sauce and I'd never thought about soy sauce like that before, because here, I feel like we see soy sauce as so many different brands and they're quite cheap on the supermarket shelf. Some brands just make things salty, and that's it. Then I read on your Instagram that you've made your own soy sauce and you mentioned that you just have the water, soy bean, salt and time. That made me really stop and think because I have to say I didn't realise how you make soy sauce. So tell me, what's your process?

Yoora: In a nutshell, we obviously start with the soybean. We cook the soybean until they are really soft, and then we mash them into a square block called Meju. And after making meju, we set up an optimal temperature and humidity, so we can grow the beneficial bacteria within the meju and once the meju is ready with the ripe bacteria, we steep them in the brine for 40 days. After 40 days, we fish up the meju blocks.

Is that that the size of a brick?

Chae: The traditional size is bigger than a brick, but here, we try to make half size.

Yoora: We fish the meju out of the brine and then we keep the umami infused brine, separately in the clay jar called the onggi and then we age them for at least two years before we were able to use it in our kitchen. And then the meju block, we mash them again because at that stage it's a square block, salt in brine, and then we mash it, make it into a paste, keep it in a separate clay jar again, and then store that for at least two years. And then that paste will eventually become what's called doenjang, another fundamental Korean ingredient that's widely used in Korean cuisine. Not many people are familiar with doenjang but I think its like Japanese miso. They're both fermented bean paste, but essentially the bacteria that we used to inoculate the soybean are very different. Im not a miso expert, but I believe Japanese use what's called a koji to inoculate their miso. We use wild yeast. So remember when I talked about creating the right temperature, right humidity, we use the help of wild yeast from dry hay. The bacteria from dry hay will help inoculate the soybean block.

Where is the hay?

Yoora: We contact our local farmer, and source organic dry hay.

But do you put it underneath?

Yoora: This is interesting. I'm glad you asked because traditionally, you twist the hay to make a rope and then you tie the meju and hang it outside in the open air to grow bacteria. If you Google meju, that is probably the image you will find on the Google website. Those are the major blocks hung and tied with the hay. But it is very difficult to find the long hay to be able to make those ropes. They all chopped up here for some reason. We couldn't find the long hay. So we had to come up with our own way to inoculate the soy bean block. What we do is we use a vegetable mesh bag, place the meju inside the bag, and then we grab a handful of the chopped up hay, put it in the bag, and then we hang that bag.

Do you need to change the hay over the course of the process?

Yoora: No. After those 40 days, after inoculating the meju block, we discard the hay and they give it a thorough rinse and clean, so there's hay left in the meju.

What makes it such a dark colour?

Chae: At the beginning, the young soy sauce colour is brown. But after two years, in direct sun, it changes to dark.

Yoora: In answer to your question, it's time that gives it that colour. I don't know the science behind it, but, as you can see on the jars outside, they have the transparent lid on top of it to get direct sun. Sun is the best natural sanitiser and it also makes the colour of soy sauce darker. Those transparent lids are modern. Traditionally, they don't have transparent lids. They are also have a clay lid. I told you about 50 clay jars coming from Korea. They have clay lids on top of them. We have to switch them to the transparent lids. Back in the old days, what mums used to do was first thing in the morning, theyd give it a good wipe around the jar, to make sure they were clean and then they lifted the lid for a short period of time to get the sun. Then they closed the lid. It is very labour intensive and very, repetitive, very tedious.

Does it change the amount of time?

Chae: Otherwise they get mouldy if they don't have direct sun.

So you can just leave yours?

Yoora: Yes. Somebody came up with this really clever design of transparent lids with metal mesh around them so no insects or dust can get in, but because it's transparent, it saves us from having to lift the lid for light and sun every day. Time makes the darker colour.

Living in the Dandenongs, which is so beautiful, but quite a different microclimate, perhaps to South Korea, do you have to take that into consideration when you're fermenting or making soy sauce and so on?

Chae: Korea's winter is normally very dry and really cold, but here it is very humid and not too cold. So if you hang the meju outside, you will get unexpected mould. We make smaller blocks and then we hang inside and then turn on the fan. And then we try to control our humidity as well.

There's nothing hanging at the moment, so how often do you make it?

Chae: We do it once a year in wintertime. We start at the end of this month and then all the processing will finish in September. So for three to four months, we will be really busy. We have to keep making meju nonstop.

Yoora: So every year, from the end of April until September is our major making season. Then they are stored in the clay jars for two years for two years.

That's not the only thing that you're fermenting and preserving. What else do you make?

Chae: In wintertime, we are really busy because we have to do all the fermentation. My mum normally makes a thousand cabbages of kimchi every winter.

Wow, a thousand?

Chae: Yes. Because she shares with her family.

Yoora: Traditionally, the first born of the siblings and traditionally, the first daughter, and her father is the first son, those children carry the burden of feeding the entire family. That happens a lot with the chores and making condiments, kimchi. That batch of kimchi will last throughout the winter.

How long would it take her to process a thousand cabbages? Does everyone help?

Chae: Yes. Neighbours and everyone. At least the three days. Then she has to make of course, soy bean paste, soy sauce and chilli paste in wintertime as well. Normally I make vinegar and the fermented drinks during this period as well.

You make some alcoholic and some non-alcoholic drinks?

Chae: Mostly non-alcoholic.

When people come here for dinner, how does it work? What's the flow of dinner?

Yoora: They arrive. We greet our guests, show them to their seats and I hand out the menu. At the same time, Chae is pouring tea and water. Once everyone has arrived, I formally introduce ourselves and then I leave, and let Chae take over, and then that's when the service starts. Our service are roughly lasts for just over two hours. We start with snacks, followed by entree, beverage pairing, one or two starters, another beverage pairing. Two mains, and lastly dessert.

Chae: Before last main, we always prepare a palate cleanser.

Yoora: Something refreshing, something slightly acidic, just to work up their appetite.

You grow some Korean herbs in your garden but what's your relationship with other producers and suppliers? How did you decide on where to get your duck and fish, for example?

Yoora: We were lucky to have our seafood supplier willing to deliver to us. Even though we are a very, very small business, very small quantity. Thank you very much, Clamm's for that. For with the meat, we have a local butcher that we closely work with. and we use a mostly Asian produce, vegetables. The closest Asian supermarket, that we really like to go to is in Glen Waverley. And for the poultry, Chae is a proud brand ambassador for Aurum Poultry.

Chae: They deliver here. Even if we only order two ducks per week.

Yoora: We are in a very fortunate, lucky position to be able to work with these amazing suppliers, despite our remote location. Every Friday, I go out to buy all the vegetables and fruit and other ingredients. Then we get the other things delivered to us.

How often do you change the menu?

Chae: We change the menu every two months. We follow the seasons.

Are your ideas for the menu always coming from tradition or are you inspired by other things, your experience in fine dining?

Chae: I try to follow the traditional way and then I just add my flavour.

Did you always know that you wanted to be a chef when you were young?

Chae: Actually, I wanted to be a manga illustrator or cartoonist since I was little. So I did cartoons for a really long time until early my early twenties. I realised I didn't have any talent, so I just gave up.

What made you think about hospitality?

Chae: I came to Melbourne because I wanted to have a new adventure, and I started with in pastry at first, but I realised I didn't like the sweet smell. So I ted my career to cookery. That's the beginning. That's when I realised I really enjoyed it. I love to see people eating my food. So while I studied, I always invited people to my house and then tried to cook something new. And I loved watching them eat my food.

That's very generous, and perhaps that generosity extends to your book because you're sharing recipes and techniques with people. I know that it's quite a process to make a book and I know that Yoora helped a lot with that book. Where do you start? Were you asked to do a book? Is that how it happened?

Chae: Hardie Grant contacted us.

Yoora: We were asked to do a book and they wanted to see if we were interested and we were definitely interested. We wanted to stay true to our restaurant, our restaurant is mostly known for Korean traditional condiments. So we dedicated the first part of the book talking about traditional Korean condiments, and then the second half is broken down into seasonal recipes, where we talk about cooking dishes using the condiments that they were discussed in the prior chapter.

Chae, you wrote your ideas in Korean? Then they were translated by someone else and then Yoora checked it.

Yoora: I helped out with communication between Chae and the translator and the publisher. I was a messenger in between. The process was that Chae wrote the original script in Korean, and then we had a professional translator translating to English and then that passed on to the editor at Hardie Grant, and then of course, the editor had lots of questions. That's when I jumped in and helped with the communication between the editor and Chae. Its a repetitive process.

Chae: It was very stressful for you at the time.

I bet, and I think you're already so busy, I know during the week it takes you all of the week to prepare for your guests at the weekend. I feel like doing a book would be another added stress.

Yoora: In hindsight, it was the busiest period in the five years of running the business.

How long did it take to produce it?

Chae: Two years.

Your: Because the second part of the book was seasonal recipes. So we couldn't capture the food at the same time. In spring, we had our spring recipes, the photographer amazing. And the stylist came and they did the spring photo shoot for two days. Then we waited for a few months and did the next season.

With the seasonal recipes, the home cook can substitute in store bought condiments, can't they? You explain the process of how you make your condiments, but perhaps people at home might not do that.

Yoora: We certainly don't want our readers to feel overwhelmed by this lengthy process. So there's always store bought alternatives, if you want to pick a shortcut and keep it simple, but if they want to do it really traditional authentic way, they can always follow the first part and then give it give it a try, which is really rewarding process.

I wanted to talk about your beautiful ceramics. I feel like aesthetics are really important and perhaps if you started your life thinking about art and drawing and Yoora, you were designing fashion and you've done all the beautiful branding of all of the bottles and jars. It's incredible. What's the story behind your ceramics? How did you choose those pieces?

Yoora: Chae is the only person running the kitchen, there's no other team members to put garnishes on top of dishes. She wants to make things really clean and simple, and then the way to do that is to complement her dish is by using these beautiful ceramics, mostly from Korea and also from local artists.

Chae: There are so many local artists as well, and they are making really good pieces.

Yoora: Chae likes unpolished raw, natural, not really refined look when it comes to choosing her look. Chae believes that sort of design complements her approach to cooking, which is really natural, and organic.

With all of the experience that you have had, what would your advice be to a young person starting out as a chef? What would be important?

Chae: Chefs starting out need to believe in what they want to do and go with their gut feeling to trust in themselves and just keep working at it. Block out the noise from outside.

Chae, 33 Mountain Road, Cockatoo