Khanh Nguyen

Hi Khanh, I’ve been reading about Sunda and it seems as though it has just quietly crept up on everyone and become a really big thing on the scene. Did you expect that to happen?

I didn’t expect that to happen but it was something I did hope for. Sunda was something I’ve been wanting to do for the last ten years since I started cooking. It has been a long time coming so I really hoped that everyone did accept it for what it is and I feel that I’m really lucky that everyone is enjoying it.

When you say, accept it for what it is, what is it?

It’s a modern take on Southeast Asian food. I’ve worked in Asian restaurants before where diners would say, you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere and it will be just as good. I was worried that people would think that and that people wold think I was trying too hard or being too different. But using Asian flavours with native Australian ingredients works and I think that’s what everyone really loves about it. That’s what sets us apart from everyone else as well.

Absolutely. You’re not going for authenticity, are you? You’re going for maybe capturing an idea of the food and then putting a spin on it.

Yeah so a lot of the dishes are based on a traditional dish but done quite differently. The flavours remain the same and with added native ingredients, it makes it a bit familiar but different at the same time.

I was reading somewhere that you said that all paths, or all jobs have lead to this one, in terms of the people you’ve worked with and the places you’ve been, can you talk me though that?

Yeah. When I started cooking, I wanted to change people’s perspective on Vietnamese food. It’s a cheap cuisine. People go and have a bowl of soup and then they’ll call it a night and the same thing as I said before with Southeast Asian, people see it as cheap. I wanted to change people’s perspective. That’s when I started working at Red Lantern just to learn more about Vietnamese food. After two years there, I knew that to take the next step and do what I wanted to do, I needed to learn about working in a fine dining restaurant. That led me to working in Bécasse with Justin North. I spent one and a half years there until they closed down and that’s where I learned Asian flavours and how to refine them. Then I wanted to learn about leadership roles. That’s when I started at Mr Wong and I was the sous chef there for three and a half years. I was looking over a team of 45 chefs so I learned a lot about leadership there and also a lot about strong intense flavours because Dan Hong just loves food to be tasty. That’s the main thing for him.

Towards the end of the three and a half years there, I entered a few competitions and thought about what I wanted to do and it was still the same thing. I knew that I didn’t have my own style yet; my style wasn’t refined enough yet so I left Mr Wong just to find something different. I wasn’t sure where I was going to work and then probably about four months before I left, I found out Noma was coming to Sydney, so I applied straightaway and it took a few months for me to be accepted.

While I was at Mr Wong’s and eating at Billy Kwong, I was really inspired by the way she uses native ingredients with Cantonese food. I thought it would be cool to do that with Vietnamese food. That’s why I wanted to intern at Noma. I learned a lot there. I spent about 11 weeks working there for free, but it was worth it. I learned a lot about native ingredients and how a world class kitchen operates. The kind of leadership skill that Rene has is amazing. Then after Noma, obviously I still had that goal of refining my skills and finding my style. That’s when I met Brent Savage. We knew each other, here and there, we’d met a few times and then I bumped into him once and he told me he was opening a restaurant and asked if I’d like to work there. I spent about six months working between Bentley, Yellow and Monopole as junior sous chef and eventually finishing at Cirrus and working there for over a year as the senior sous chef.

Just before Cirrus, the break between working at Bentley and all that and Cirrus, I travelled to Vietnam. That was my goal; to do Vietnamese food. I visited eight different cities. I ate over 150 different dishes. Every day I had at least six meals. It’s over 150 different dishes, and sometimes I had the same dish, so I probably ate around 200 meals there.

What’s your process? Do you have a notebook or…?

Yeah. I noted down everything in my phone. Then after that eating all that Vietnamese food I thought there was only so much I could do with it because a lot of it is very similar. A lot of the food is served with sweet fish sauce and there are a lot of soups which you can’t really refine that much. So then I thought why don’t I do Southeast Asian food. I see a lot of Vietnamese restaurants opening up as Modern Vietnamese but they’re actually Thai food as well. I wanted to stay true to what I say I’m going to do. So I decided on Southeast Asian.

Before opening Sunda, I went on a research trip to Singapore, Malaysian and Indonesia. During that trip I ate a lot as well. Over 10 days, I ate about 100 dishes. I lost my phone during that trip, which is where I had all my ideas for Vietnamese dishes. That was eight years in the making and then traveling there. I didn’t have it backed up, so I decided to make the most of the trip and just do my first menu based on that trip. So the menu at the moment at Sunda has a lot of Vietnamese influences but a lot of it is Indonesian and Malaysian. That’s what led me to where I am today.

And that’s what it is. It’s amazing. Incorporating the native ingredients, how does that work? You need to be aware of their flavour profile and then think about how that would work in with what you’re doing?

Asian food is a lot about balance. You have sweet, salty, sour, spicy and a lot of native ingredients are sour and some are bitter as well, so making a dish and then substituting one of those flavour profiles with the acidity of, say, lemon aspen, that rounds off the dish and gives it a little bit extra as well. The reason why I want to use native ingredients is the same reason Kylie Kwong wants to do that. She grew up in Australia. She’s Australian Chinese and I’m the same. I grew up in Sydney, born in Australia, but I was raised eating Vietnamese food my whole life and I guess the food at Sunda is a way of expressing who I am.

I’ve said this to people before, it is who I am. I had Dan Hong come in last week to eat and he said he could tell which dishes were based on which restaurant I worked at. He knew which one was a Brent Savage inspiration. Obviously everything is pretty heavily seasoned and he knows that’s from Mr Wong. It’s who I am.

So you’ve found your style?

I’d say so. It’s pretty similar to Brent Savage’s style. When I ate at Monopole for the first time, I thought I wanted to do something like that but with Asian flavours. I have to thank Brent for that. He’s very supportive as well. Before I left Cirrus, I said, hey, just so you know, all my food is going to look like your food, but Asian flavours. He calls me every week and talks about the reviews and he has been really supportive.

It sounds as though you have a really considered approach to coming up with food and ideas and even your whole career. This first menu is based on a trip but you’ve lost all your other stuff, what will you do moving forward?

We’ve been open for about five months and every second week, we’ll have a special on. Just because I lost those ideas doesn’t mean they're not in my head. I do work these long weeks, but on my days off, I’ll just sit at home and think about dishes and go through cookbooks and old recipes and that kind of stuff. Coming up with a new menu will probably be based on Vietnamese flavours because that’s more about who I am. I’m pretty happy with doing Southeast Asian in general because there are so many flavours you can play with and it’s not restricted to just fish sauce.

That’s so good. Just going back to what you were saying about leadership. What would you say your style of leadership is? I was amazed when I walked in here. It’s so quiet. Everyone obviously knows what they’re doing.

I think you just walked in at a good time. When I was at Wong as senior sous chef and at Cirrus, I was always the nice guy who people approached because they were too scared to go to the head chef so back then I wanted to be that guy who people can come to and back then I thought, well, the head chef is a bit of an asshole. But then when we opened Sunda, I really understood how they felt. At the start, I was a bit of a different person. it’s getting better now and more relaxed, but now I understand what it means to be a head chef. I thought I knew, but I had no idea. I try to be calm as much as possible but sometimes I get a bit angry.

Of course. It’s pressured in there. And when you have your ideas and you want to convey them to your team, do you show or do you tell?

The current menu I show. Everyone ate everything before I even tasted it. I just had these ideas of flavours I thought would work and then I’d plate it up and get someone else to taste it and it wasn’t until everyone said they loved it and I tasted it and thought, hang on, it’s not bad. I’ve always been hard on myself. I do a lot of thinking about where I can improve. I let other people judge the dishes. if they’re happy, then I’ll be happy as well. I have to trust the people who are giving me this feedback as well. A lot of it is just ideas or flavours I think will work well together.

Are you able to enjoy it? I spoke to Julian Hill In Navi last week and he said he thinks about food 24/7 and as a head chef with so much to think about, are you able to enjoy the process?

I enjoy the process and I enjoy it when people say they like the dishes, but when I eat my own dishes, I don’t know, I get a bit nervous and my mouth goes dry and I don’t get the dish for what it is. It’s basically me on the plate and eating it doesn’t feel right. It never feels right. I used to cook at home and after I’d cook and eat it, I’d think it was horrible. I can’t really enjoy my food but I’m happy that people appreciate it.

But you enjoy cooking it?

Yes. The whole process leading up to it and cooking at home, I love it. After a really long week, I’ll have one day off and I’ll spend six hours cooking and enjoying that, but once it gets to sitting down and eating it, I’m not hungry any more. A lot of chefs are like that. I’ve spoken to a lot of chefs and it’s so strange because it’s meant to be the most rewarding part when you sit down and eat your own meal, but I think maybe all the tasting leading up to it, you get sick of it.

Have your family tasted your food, your parents?

My parents are in Sydney. Before I came to Melbourne, I did a pop-up. I didn’t actually invite my parents to the pop-up, even though I had free tickets because I was kinda scared. They’re really old school. They go to canteens and Vietnamese restaurants. All the fine dining restaurants I’ve worked at, they have no idea what fine dining is. And they have no idea what I’m doing with my career. All they know is that I’m working crazy hours and coming home tired …and angry sometimes. That’s how they see it. I was very nervous about inviting them but my brother found out there was a pop-up so he made the come and they did love it. But my brother said, even if it’s shit, they’ll still love it. So then that got me thinking, what if it is shit and they’re just saying it’s good.

No. You sound like a perfectionist.

They are very proud of me. They speak minimal English so they don’t read reviews or anything but they see the pictures and my brother tells them the main parts so they’re proud. For them, for a long time, my mum would ask why I was doing this, why I was working 16-hour days. My uncle works at a café and makes more money than me. Growing up, my parents put me through tutoring and through a private school. They are the stereotyped Asian parents who want their children to be a lawyer or a doctor and then when I chose to do cooking, my mum used to cry. She was upset that I was going through all this stuff when she wanted me to work in an office. I think she understands more now about why. want to do this. For them, they came to Australia for a better life and to give their children a better life, because they did it hard in Vietnam. So seeing their son working harder than they worked, it’s very upsetting for them. I just tell them the hours are better now, so they’re happy.

It's a shame they can’t understand how much you love it and what you get out of it.

For them, I’m not saying they’re not passionate, but they work to make money to look after the family, they don’t understand the passion.

It’s a luxury we have in this country to be able to choose to do crazy long hours for not very much money but because you love it.

Yeah, but it is good.

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Sunda

18 Punch Lane, Melbourne