Mariana Chedid

Hi Mariana. It smells delicious in here. I was just reading your quote on the board about it being all about the story.

That's how we keep generation going.

I think that's what conversation with a chef is for me, sharing that back story. I was reading a little bit in your introduction about how you got into food, so lets start with your story. You are from Lebanon?

Yes, I was born and raised in Lebanon and then we moved here for a better future. I came here as a student. We moved to Sydney first. I studied architectural technology and I started working in hospitality only because, as a student you can't really get a job. They worry about your visa. I know basically everything from a house, but I never thought I'd ever cook, until one day I could cooked by mistake and I fell in love. I was 27 then.

What part did food play when you were growing up?

Im a big eater. I always tend to be overweight because I love food. I just love it so much. Coming from a Lebanese family, it's all about food. Whatever we do, it's always around the food table. Whether it's a funeral, a wedding, a baptism, whatever that is, it's just food. I was lucky that my both grandmas and my mum and my aunties, everybody's a great cook at home. But I never wanted to grow up to be a traditional Middle Eastern woman that only knows how to cook. That's why maybe I was resenting the idea of cooking.

What was that first meal, or mistake, that you cooked that made you fall in love with it?

It was a full set. I was working at a hospital cafe in Werribee and the chef didn't show up. So I had to cook everything from eggs and bacon and fried rice. And I realized I knew how to cook just by sitting with the chefs and discussing menus. But never had done it. So that was it. It was a big menu that I had to put on.

For how many people?

I don't know, maybe a hundred.

That's impressive. I like cooking and you can watch other people cook, but to put everything up at the right time.

In Paris!

Yes. I was lucky enough that my stepdad funded my school fees and everything. I went to the same school she went to. So I was copying her footsteps basically. I went to France; I applied, I was lucky to get in, but I worked so hard then. When you're mature you see life differently when you go to study. Plus I wanted to make my stepfather proud.

Was that general cookery?

I did both; cuisine and patisserie. I did the French diploma.

Do you speak French?

Yes, I do. In Lebanon, we all speak French.

I think it would definitely help knowing French. Some things aren't really easily translatable.

Yeah. But at the school, it's more done for international students there. You always have a translator in class, which was great. One of my customers here was a translator at the same school. But it helps definitely. Even working in France, it helps a lot when you know the language.

I saw that after the course you worked at the La Tour d'Argent?

Yes, I did. It was an amazing experience. I only went there because it was my stepdad's favourite restaurant. Every time he's in Paris, he'll make sure he goes there. He told me I had to go there. It is based on your marks that you get the preference to choose where you want to go for your internship. I was pretty lucky to be accepted there.

How long were you there?

Around five months.

What was it like? I speak to lots of chefs who talk about the brigades and kitchens of the past and so on. What's it like in France now, in kitchens in France?

It's hard because in France there are a lot of chefs. Luckily, I was doing an internship, so I worked there for free. But if I was to work as a chef in Paris, you can't survive. It's very hard. First of all, the pay is very low. And then Paris itself is very expensive. I used to work with people who lived in a studio that's 15 square metres really just to save, to get the experience. And over there, there are so many chefs there, they can put any rule they want for you just to get the experience. Unless you really make it and become an executive chef or a sous chef. But how it works, it was phenomenal. In the kitchen there were, I don't know, maybe 60 of us. I remember the first month, a whole month I was only on the lobster section. When there's a lobster order, I get it fresh, crack it, cook it. And that was my job. It's pretty intense. But at the same time, it's a lot of discipline, which is in respect. That's one thing that I didn't find here. It's really an institution. It's like being in the army. It's not just a job where you can call in sick. No, they're like warriors there in the kitchen.

And I think front of house has a similar standing in France?

Absolutely. They take so much pride in what they do, which is phenomenal.

Tell me a bit more about the Tour d'Argent. I've looked longingly at the website.

It's a very old institution. They have the biggest wine cellar in all of Europe. And it's underground. And then the restaurant is on level five, which is the pastry kitchen and level six. And then on the ground floor is where they receive all the goods. There's someone down there who is only receiving and sorting out all the producers that come. They have their own farmers. The duck there comes numbered. They buy them from the same farmer. Even now, when you go, they'll give you a certificate of the duck number so maybe number 5,642 served at La Tour dArgent. You go in, you go up and then it's just prep; they work all day, all night, just for couple of hours of service for lunch and couple of hours service for dinner.

And how many guests?

It fits probably not more than 60 or 70.

Is it all degustation or do they have la carte?

They have la carte. The duck there, they still cook it in a way where we prepare it, but it goes out to the customer, they carve it in front of them, and then they press it to get all the blood out and they make the sauce in front of them. It's quite mesmerising. I haven't dined there yet as a customer, but my family has.

They've been doing provenance then for a long time, then.

It's an institution. It has been there for a long time. Somebody told me that they are going to add a rooftop on top of the building and they have to move all the wine out because they have to make sure the structure of the building can handle it, because it's a very old building.

It really is a tower then. I've seen what it looks like. But I hadn't imagined the layout.

The last two floors have a little bit of private dining, when you have important people come in, but then upstairs is where everybody comes in.

That's incredible. And were you somewhere else there as well?

I went and worked in a pastry shop for Jean-Francois Piege, who was a Top Chef celebrity there. And that was good.

Whereabouts is that?

I think it was in the 14tharrondissement from memory, it was called Gateaux Thoumieux. It was only cakes. But cakes where you go in and it's like a jewellery shop, it's not just a cake shop. There's no seating. You just walk in, and everything's displayed like a jewellery fridge.

I do love that about France. We're certainly seeing more of that here now, snippets of it. I haven't been to Paris since 2012 and I'm going next year, and I can't wait.

I'm not a big fan. Living in Paris is very different than going as a tourist.

I lived in the south of France for a year, so when I say Paris, I mean France. I first went to France for the year, it was 1993. I was an English assistant. I lived in the south near Avignon. And then I took the train up to Paris in the October holidays. I was 22 and I just remember walking around and, especially having studied French, and finally being in France, it was

amazing.

I've been to France, to Paris, France is different from Paris. And I've been to Paris a few times as a tourist and it was a different experience. But living there, it's tough. Its not very safe. You don't feel all this as a tourist. You feel it only when you live there.

When were you there?

2014, 15. People steal. You can't sit and have your bag on the table even inside the restaurant. I remember somebody was trying to steal something from a girl late at night from our school and he pushed her under the train just to grab her bag. Then they're very lazy when it comes to logistics. To open a bank account, it took me maybe a month just to open a bank account. They need a lot of paperwork and then you have to book an appointment. It was just not as easy as here.

No, I understand. It was even like that when I was there. I had to go back and forward to Marseille, to the Bureau dEtrangers just to get a long staying visa, even though I had applied for it from New Zealand, it was set up through the government, this assistantship program. And every month I would go and every month they would say, oh no, you just need this other thing. At one point I burst into tears and the man just said to me, crying is not going to help you. The idea of Paris is always is so romantic. All these Instagram photos we're seeing of people over there at the moment.

No, no. Tourism is phenomenal. But to live there, it's, it's quite hard. But that's only in Paris.Because when you're travel outside, it's just a beautiful country and the people are different and there's not so many tourists. But I think we are lucky to live here. We have a lot of potential. It's a whole continent that's not being consumed. We have a lot of resources. We have everything except techniques. We only need good techniques. We already make the best wine. Dairy is on the way. We can produce the best the world has to offer in this country.

So by techniques do you mean like artisanal things? Particular products?

Everything, let's say. There are a lot of wineries here and they have taken over the techniques. They do their own Chablis like in France and these same methods and it's coming out so beautifully here. The butter, the jams, the fruits, the flour, we've got one of the best flours in the world. Our environment is clean. Even our livestock. Where in the world do you drive and see from the street lamb on farms? So we really need to take advantage of that. And it will come, I'm sure.

I've been thinking lately about that European way of focussing on one thing and doing it really well. Often in places like New Zealand and Australia, when people start out doing something, for example, I spoke to the guy at Maker and Monger and we were talking about cheeses. The cheese makers here might feel like they have to make all the kinds of cheese. Whereas in Europe you are known for one kind of cheese and you do that exceptionally. But here there's that pressure: what if people don't like that cheese? Producers feel the need to diversify.

But that comes with education. Australians are traveling and they're, they're actually well-travelled. Before some people, even Lebanese, I know that they moved, migrated here, let's say 50 years ago and they never went back even to Lebanon, let alone to Europe. But now you see a lot of people are traveling more and then they'll appreciate more. We will get there. Where you are known, let's say, for making, camembert, and you will have enough confidence for you to just do one thing and be good at

That's right. People like Garth Whitton, at Tarts Anon. He's just doing tarts. I think that was a brave move, but it totally works. I think he'll probably at a place as you say now, where more people understand. That's great. He does tarts.

When I first opened, I just wanted to do French, and that's it. But then I started seeing on weekends you would come with your friend, you're eating the croissant, your friend's just sitting there because he wants to eggs and bacon. So I had to introduce all that. I was too stubborn at first that I just wanted French. But people are getting it now a bit more.

What is it about pastry that you love? Why pastry? And why not open a restaurant, for example?

I was always looking for a lifestyle. Which I still don't have. So I've always thought, in cooking, there's your soul in the food. There's no way that if I give you a recipe and you give me a recipe, that we would do it the same way. No matter what, you might add a bit of extra salt, I might add a little bit extra dressing or whatever. But in pastry, it's chemistry. I've created those recipes and then anybody can duplicate them because I know that it's going to come out the same way. Does that make sense?

Yes. But with things like croissants, isn't it certain technique as well?

It is. But then you train. I've put a lot of time and training into my staff, but at the same time it's, we still don't get it right every time. Because it's chemistry, as I said. So sometimes the humidity might change. Last fortnight, all our croissant would come out cracked from the top. They proved beautifully and we couldn't figure out. Then it turns out it's the humidity. We had to lower the humidity when proofing. Tthe dough was just too wet when we proofed it. So it works. You learn those strict rules. At the same time it's weighing. That's what makes me feel safer in opening a Patisserie, you have to weigh a kilo of sugar, a kilo of flour. It's not just whatever you taste.

In terms of teaching staff, you can give them the recipe and they can watch your technique. but then there's all those other things, as you say, you have to be aware of humidity. That understanding must come from being really in tune with the ingredients.

Yes. Because it's a live product. Once you boost that, it's live. You can't control it anymore. But then that's why I'm here, to see how it feels, how it tastes. If I could get somebody at least just to weigh me the stuff, then I can do the rest, which is easy. That was part of it. Secondly, I would love to open a restaurant, but I don't want to work at night time. Even now there's too much happening. Maybe summertime we will. A lot of customers have been asking. But then I'm really picky with my cooking because anything that's here, if it's not extremely yummy, I wouldn't serve it. That's why I opened the shop. I opened the shop because I wanted to go somewhere I feel good. You see a lot of things happening in restaurants. I wanted a place where I can go and to eat whatever I want, knowing that it's clean, good produce. That was the whole point of it. And then I thought to myself, if customers come in, they're welcome. Now thank God it's doing so well.

You opened in 2020.

Yes. During Covid. It was a mistake. It was a mistake that it started. Not that I've done it. I was at home in 2020 and I started just to keep busy like everybody else at home. started baking at home and doing all that. (Here, I was eating a croissant and it made the most delicious crackle.) I love the sound of that.

I know. It sounds incredible. This is the best croissant I've ever eaten. Everything about it is perfection. It's not overly buttery.

I like it to be wet. A lot of customers come in and say, ah, it's undercooked. But I say it's not undercooked. You know, this is how croissants should be. It should be a little bit, not soggy, but chewy from the inside. It's not just a dry pastry, you know? Anyway, so I started making pastries at home and then one day I made croissants and my family went crazy. The second day I made them. So they started asking me to make croissants every day. Every day I'd do one kilo of flour, and proof it with a cup of hot water. I learned a lot during that process too. Our flour here is different from France. In France they have the T55, T 45. It's a different culture of flour and butter. I started making it here with Lurpack just at home. My friend said to me, you should start selling these. I went to The Pantry in Brighton and I dropped off a box, put my number on the box and I said, if they liked it, whoever the owner is, let them call me. They rang me the second day and asked me what my story was? I said, no story, I just started doing this and I think they're fantastic. He said it was the best hed tasted. I rang the council and we started in the garage. We started making him maybe a hundred croissants a day and went to 700 a day. I got a lot of wholesale customers from him. Then three months later I moved here. But I wasn't planning to open a cafe yet. I thought we'd start wholesale and see how we go. With Covid nobody was on the streets. Then customers started smelling them. That smell you noticed when you walked in from outside. We had black on all of the glass, nobody could see what's happening inside. But I think this corner here was dead for a while. Everybody was excited about what was happening. We started selling croissants on the street. And then slowly, slowly, I built this whole place with my own hands. Except for painting.

It feels French. It's just beautiful.

You'll see a lot of mistakes. If you focus now, you'll see it's very dodgy work. But I was learning that too.

You've really captured the essence of France.

It was like when you're young and you play with the Barbie house. That was the feel when I opened here. It was like a toy for me. It wasn't a business. Now I'm learning how to make it a business, but at the same time it's still a toy for me. I love it. I just want my friends to come. We sit down, we eat. That's really it.

Tell me about your cakes? They look like jewels.

We do mainly authentic French. Like the Mille Feuille, the Eclair, the Fraisier, the Opra. Theres also black forest, but the French way. Pavlova, we had to put it in.

Originally from New Zealand, not Australia. Well, they're actually probably originally from France; the meringue.

But then people adapt things and you'd be surprised. A lot of ideas come at the same time from the same people all over the world. It's not like I could think of something now and then if I look it up, I know somebody else has thought about it. So who knows if the Pavlova came from France or New Zealand. Let's keep it New Zealand. It's very yummy regardless. We do some sandwiches, some salads, some quiche all made from the croissant dough. Everything we make is from that pastry. Because it gives it that buttery-ness. When we first started, I was importing the butter from France, but I wasn't happy for one reason: because butter shouldn't last. Especially if it's cultured butter. It shouldn't last more than a month.

But then it comes in and they say it lasts for six months after defrosting. And then I thought to myself, there must be a way that we can use local butter, we have the best dairy here. So I started looking at changing it. So we started doing the butter. We bought Australian butter and then make it into sheets that is good for folding croissant. But then I went to Sydney and met with Pepe Seya and now that's the only butter I use. I'm in love with that butter. He does sheets and he sends them to me on a Wednesday. After two weeks, it starts to smell, which I love. Cultured fresh, it comes and in a week, it's gone. We reorder. Thats what makes it so good. It's not me, it's the butter. In croissants, it's all in the butter, nothing else. If you've got a good butter, that's it.

Now laminating, what's the secret to that? How many times should it be folded?

Well, it depends. Everybody does it differently. But usually it's three single folds. But the butter has to be dry butter. The whole thing is that you don't want the butter to melt inside the dough while you're doing it, or else it becomes a brioche. That's the whole difference. When you do dry butter, when you're working with it, it won't melt. It has less fat in it than a normal butter. Then when you put it in the proofer, let's say a normal butter would melt at 25 degrees, a dry butter won't melt until it reaches 30. So when you proof it at 28, the yeast will get activated, but the butter wont melt. That's the only secret. Then when you bake it – and this is phenomenal people ask why croissants have all these layers? Its because the butter melts at that heat and then the hydration of the butter melting pushes up the dough. It's the same for puff pastry, it rises up. It's because the butter held, its shape enough for it to go into the oven. And then once it hits that 180 degrees, it just melts and it starts pushing the dough. The evaporation of the butter goes up in steam.

Chemistry?!

Yeah. But it's good chemistry, amazing chemistry. That's why people use dry butter. They don't use normal butter. Normal butter will melt it if you hold it.

I'm just looking at your French diplomas on the wall.

I'm so, so lucky. The experience at school was phenomenal. It was like being in the army, the discipline and the respect that you find in France for goods. They teach you how to use the carrot; everything in the carrot. Or when you're cooking a chicken, there's a soul that was killed for you to enjoy that. The chicken was an actual soul. So you have to cook it with respect and not burn it so that it ends up in the bin. They teach you all that and that's amazing. It's not only a piece of chicken that comes into the kitchen and you're cooking. Always, in my back of my mind, it was a chicken and a farmer and there was a lot of hard work. There is a whole process right through to the waiter who puts it on your plate because they might be rude and ruin the whole process.

It's a huge process for you to eat a croissant. You might think about the cow, about the farm, about the transportation; delivering the butter, delivering the flour and us making it. And then it could comes down to a waiter, a rude waiter that will come in and ruin everything for you. And that's what I try and teach them; to respect the whole process. You could have the best customer service, but the worst chef in there and then he would ruin all that hospitality experience for you. It's a circle of life.

I love that. I often bring it up in these chats about reading a book, Like water for chocolate. It's about this chef and whenever she cooks, her emotions go into the food and then the people that eat that experience those emotions. And I think that is exactly what you're saying. I think it goes before her as well.

In anything you do in life, if we respect this whole process, we would live in a much better world. We don't need to work for global warming. If we respect what's happening, we can save the world.

That's so fascinating. I just listened to a podcast the other day with two actors, Kevin Bacon and Mark Ruffalo. Mark Ruffalo works with a community and environmental group and the woman he works with was saying exactly that. She said, we can get to zero carbon emissions and all of that, but until you treat our root values, nothing changes.

It's education. I was blown away when I went to Japan. That was my last trip. It was only earlier this year. I really came back with a different mindset. I saw how they live in such a harmony even though it's one of the most populated cities in the world. At the same time, you don't feel that density of people because everybody does everything with respect. If we take the Japanese as an example of how to respect this planet Earth, I think we'll be fine.

How can we get people to do that?

It's education. If I start here, I have a great team here. It took a while for them to understand the way I see life. We have a lot of disabled or young people that come for the experience here. At the end of the day, they don't have to put up with it, even though it's my choice. Having those people gives them a chance in life. They all understand that they're doing this for the benefit of the society, so they take him in and then they train them. Everybody here knows that it's not only about the business, it's about how can we change the world. I'd like to think that at least I'm making a difference. And if I can pass it on, imagine how many people will come and work here or they'll come and eat here and then they see that we can still live in a happy place.

Everybody comes here and thanks us for the customer service or for the food and I look at them and say, but this is how it should be. We shouldn't expect rudeness. Normal is to have a good experience. Hospitality is when somebody walks in and you are hospitable. Everybody's happy here. I can guarantee you this and I'll make sure that their life beyond this door is fine. Because if I can make a difference to every single one of my employees or my co-workers, they'll make a difference somewhere else. This is how I think I'm changing my own world, at least the people that I get to meet on this life journey. That's what I love to do. I'm creating my own community for the better world. Maybe I'm just still dreaming, but at least I'm making a difference in five people's lives. I'm happy with that.

Brulee Patisserie, 40 Crockford Street, Port Melbourne