Mariano De Giacomi

Conversation with a chef: I was really happy when you got in touch. I love it when people say that they want to be on it because that means that you must see value in it.

Mariano De Giacomi: I started following you, looking your page. Now that I have moved jobs, I've started looking a little bit for myself. Before I was looking out for the company, now I'm thinking about my business and myself. I said, why have I never told my story? People don't know the story behind what I am doing. People don't know the sacrifices when I arrived here, almost without any money. Or what my life was like when I grew up? Everything coming from sacrifice. It doesn't come because it's magical.

So, you're originally from Naples?

I was born in Naples. My family is still there. I have my mum and I have two sisters and one brother. One brother I lost six years ago. I started working. I was very little. My father was the only one who was working. We were five kids, so there were a lot of expenses. I started working in delis taking the shopping to the people. I go with the bags with the shopping to everyone and bring the bags. I was there for eight years. I was in the deli. I would cut the salami, prosciutto, using a slicer, and I had good communication with the customers. In the morning, my routine was go to the people, check what they wanted to order. Then I would go in the shop with the list of everyone with the name and what they wanted, and I would get the groceries and take them to their house. This was my duty. I worked for my family because they were very poor. There were a lot of problems. So that's how I started working. All my money went towards buying food. Creditors came, and they asked for money. Every week, I have my salary to these people. They come in, and they get my money.

How old were you?

I was 14, 15. Slowly slowly my sister, the older one, she started working and she helped a lot as well and she helped my mum too. We tried to help mum get out of debt. Then I started working in hospitality as a dishwasher. I was 18. I always have done two, three jobs. I have never done only one job in my life. I was always working in the morning in the deli. Afternoon, I went into the restaurant. I was always doing two, three things. So I was in this restaurant as a dishwasher. At night, all the dough is leftover. The boss wanted us to put it in the rubbish. Me and other guys, we started to use that dough in training ourselves before we put in the rubbish. It became a passion; stretching the pizza, looking at the pizza maker. In Naples, being be a pizza maker is something very unachievable. It's something important, because a pizzamaker is something big. This job always was a summer job. The owner only kept a few people for winter. I was doing everything possible to make sure she kept me on in the winter. She asked me to do some painting. I was painting, cleaning, and then building, doing whatever she asked. So then she said, okay, I want you to do the winter as well. I was happy because it was what I wanted to do. Winter was very quiet. My friend told me that there was a guy who needed a pizza maker. I said, look, I don't have any experience because at that time I can cook one pizza. I went to this place, and I spoke with the guy, and I told him, look, I don't really have any experience. I'm starting out. So he said, okay. I will teach you, because you told me the truth. And I started to work with these guys. This place was so busy. There were two ovens for 454 seats. Long shifts from 9.00 in the morning to 11.00 at night. One day off a week. You can't be sick. If you were sick, you lost the job. The pizza maker was very tough with me. The prep was so much, it was for 600 pizzas. And I didnt have any experience at that time. So I say, oh my god, how can do that? So I would go very early in the morning to prep everything just to try to start at 12 o'clock to make sure I had everything ready.

Was that just the toppings or were you doing dough?

In the beginning in Naples, they don't let you touch the dough or look at the dough when you start work. This is very secret. I don't know why at that time, but it was like a mystery. You can't see the pizza maker. You can't touch the dough. The first eight months, I never touched the dough.

Do they wait for to see whether you're worthy of making the dough? Do you have to show yourself to be responsible?

Yes. Organise with prep. Be ready. Cleaning everything and be all set up, properly organised. That job actually taught me so much. Because when I left there, every place I go to work would be easy for me because I was doing prep for such big numbers there. It was a massive place. I was there for one and a half year. I asked for a raise. My salary was very low. It was 200 euros a week for double shift every day, one day off. And they said to me no, you still need to learn. I said, what? I'm like a machine. So I quit the job.

So you still weren't doing dough?

After one year, I started touching the dough and I left that place. In the city was this historical restaurant, Umberto, in Piazza Dei Martiri. I went to talk with them. I did a trial. They actually said, we want you to work here. I was there for ten and a half years. This restaurant was part of the True Neapolitan Pizza Association, the owner was the president. He taught me a lot. He had a lot of passion for pizza, the science of pizza. I started looking at pizza from a job to something different. I challenged myself to understand protein, all the stuff is happening in the fermentation, why is this happening, why is that happening. The science behind it. So in in that way, that job was so easy for me because I come from a place where I was making thousands of pizza. Then I went to this place where it was maybe 300 pizzas in the weekend and 100 pizzas during the week. So for me, it was very quiet place, a very easy place. I met a lot of people from cinema because they would go to this restaurant. Actually, there was a lot of famous people, soccer players, movie stars in the area because it's the rich area of Naples. Piazza dei Martiri, so everyone comes there.

What an experience.

It was the best experience I've done in my life.

So you were there for ten years. What made you come to Melbourne?

Because at that place, I met Johnny, the boss of 400 Gradi.He came there to do something with the Association. I used to help people coming from overseas, show them how we work in Naples. That was actually part of the job. We were working together for a week. He told me I should go to Australia? I said, it's too far.I had many opportunities at that time. I could have gone to Chicago, Canada, Melbourne. I talked with my wife and we said we needed to decide. I was very stressed because at that time, I had two jobs. In the morning, I had a cleaning job. At night I worked in the pizzeria because it was very hard to live in Naples with one salary. And it's very hard for women to find a job. Or if you find a job, they pay you, 200-300 euros a month. It's nothing. So to try to make sure my kids weren't missing anything like I did, I was working from 06.00 in the morning to midnight. After that is, my body start challenging a bit. I was in hospital. I was shaking. I woke up at six, finished at 2.00pm, went home, ate, at 3.00pm, I slept, at 5.00pm, I woke up, and went to work. I finished at midnight or 1.00am. And when I had my kids, when they cried in the night, I didn't sleep as well. I just kept going and working. I did this for ten years, not for one day or two days. My body was completely gone. I think my heart was in tachycardia, pushing too much. When I went into hospital, I said to my wife, I can't do this anymore.I need to do something. I have many opportunities to go overseas. Why don't we try that?So I chose Melbourne. I contacted Johnny and said I was thinking of going overseas. At that time, he won best pizza in 2014 in the world championships. So I came here and he said to me he had opened a restaurant in Crown Casino and that I would be the manager in charge there. So I was a manager there. There was no pizza maker in Melbourne at that time. Zero pizza makers. It was very hard to find a pizza maker in Melbourne. I trained them. I put in place a training system from zero. We would pick up people who had no experience. Actually, when I saw a dishwasher was very fast, I took him from the dishwasher area. I brought them into the pizzeria, and I trained them. I startedbuilding a group of pizza makers. Actually, it the big group of pizza makers came from Gradi. Then Johnny opened Essendonand I put my staff in Essendon, then they opened Eastland and I had another guy who was good and put him in Eastland. And like that, I started building up team all around Melbourne.

That's amazing. You're the OG pizza guy.

Actually, when I put up the post on Instagram to say I was leaving Gradi, I got 160 messages. People said I changed their lives, that I told them how to make pizza. I forgot how many people it was. I forgot the job I had done. I was so proud of my staff. Because I think my staff made me grow, and I was so proud of them.

Even though you had that hard ten years where it affected your health and so on, you obviously still love it, hospitality and pizzas.

Sometimes I say to my wife, I'm sick. Maybe I'm mentally sick because to love hospitality, you need to be crazy. I like the challenge. When I came here as well, I started working a lot, doing events for Gradi, and I start to organise events. It became crazy. If in the beginning we were selling 300 pizzas, I wanted to make 1,000. We started doing Victoria Market with 400 pizzas. We jumped to 1,200 pizzas. This was the record I've done at Victoria Market. For me, it was like a challenge. Everything was a challenge.I think at that time, people were shy, they were scared to do a trial with us. Maybe this guy is too good. We can't go there. Some people would say, before I met you, I was scared. I said, why? I'm not a scary person. I'm very friendly.

You're not like the Napoli people who kept it to themselves.

No. A lot of chefs have a very hard attitude. I don't have this. I'm very friendly. I try to understand. You don't need to be tough with staff to make them understand something. Maybe you need to understand them first, and when you understand them, they understand you, and you can collaborate together. I say, you don't need to be a pizza chef, I say to my manager, you need to be a psychologist, you need to understand your staff.

That's right. And you've left Gradi now?

I've left Gradi now after eleven years. I started this challenge. I don't know why. I wanted to come a little bit out from my comfort zone. Because I think, I can't be stuck. When everything becomes normal, I felt I couldn't do more than that. I needed to start doing something else.

I love parties and doing catering with people. This is a family business, and people love it because my kids spin pizza, do a little show. My wife does dessert for the catering. We are all in it. You bring fun. You don't bring just hospitality. I try to change a bit because there are many catering companies in Melbourne at the moment. There is a lot of pizza catering. All my staff and my ex-staff, they're doing pizza catering at the moment. Many of them make a pizza, put it on the table, and the people grab it. I try to properly give the hospitality, service. So serving them one by one, everyone, give a little fun. For example, last month I bought a silent disco. I invested in silent disco. People love it.

So there's pizza and the disco?

Yes. So people put on the head phones and everyone starts dancing when they eat. It's something different.

And are you busy?

Actually last week was the biggest week yet. I had nine events in one week.

Wow. That's a lot. Is it corporate or families?

It's family. Just family. I have a few friends who worked me in the past they help me when I need. I need to organise setup timing, booking, social media, everything. There are a lot of jobs to do. Ive started doing a pop up now. Im try to find a few more because I want to do more pop ups during the week. During the week is quiet. The weekend is busy. I don't like to say stop. If you stop me, I become crazy, so I need to work. I have worked all my life. Weekends actually go pretty well. Now, for example, this week I have four events. Next week I have five events.

Are you using the small pizza ovens?

Yes they are so quick. Actually, Dani Valent from The Age asked me to cook for her and I went to her house. We did one pizza together, and gave me this oven. It's the spinning oven. The first spinning oven I have I said, okay, I will try the oven. And when I started to use the oven, at the moment, I bought another five of that one because it's actually a very good oven. It cooks very quickly and it's a very consistent flame on the bottom as well. People love you to be there with them. So if they do a party in the garden, instead of a food truck, where you need to be on the street, you are with them. You are in the garden.

That makes it more fun for them, doesn't it? It's really interactive.

They can see how you make the fresh product. They come and talk. They want the recipe or to know a trick. I help them as well on that.

What sort of toppings do you do?

Oh, usually I do the classic Italian ones. But if someone asks for pineapple, I will do it.

Really? I thought that was a big no no.

If someone asks, I will do it.

Amazing. And then you're doing the Master classes and going into schools and so on as well.

Yes. I do a lot of schools and doing master classes for kids. Maybe soon, I will start adult master classes.

It does feel like you never stop.

You can't stop me. It's impossible. I have many friends say to me, man, what do I need to do to stay one day with you? I say, okay. You need to send an email one month in advance, and we can book it in and you can spend a day with me. There is always something to do.Usually at night, I'm thinking. In the morning, I start: I want to do this. I want to do that. And I start planning something different. We're building the first cannoli bar in Melbourne, actually. If you saw my Instagram, there is a wooden mobile cannoli bar. Its in three pieces, and you can put in the car. When you set it up, it becomes a beautiful cannoli bar with decoration on top. I saw one in America. It was very expensive to bring to Melbourne. Close to $5,000 and $6,000. We decided to build one. A friend and I built it.

Where would you take that?

Wherever we want. If people have the space.

Wow. It's mind blowing what you're doing so many things. So great.

I bring everything in the car. I went to do a pop up in Red Hill last week, and the lady came out and said, where is the stuff? I said, it's in the car. She asked, how do you have pizza, arancini, and cannoli all from the car. I said, I will show you, give me twenty minutes.Because I bought everything affordably, all new technology with a bench and small oven. I have the new oven which actually comes with a tripod as a stand. It saves you a lot of space.And you can fit everything everywhere.

So good. Congratulations. It's amazing.

The catering gives me a lot of energy. That's keeping me alive, because it's what I love. In the beginning, I was scared because I lost a bigger position. I left a bigger salary. Soon, it will be winter. There might not be many bookings in the next few months. But I say, you know what? I'm not scared. I'm not scared at all because I know it's my potential. I can do everything. Actually, sometimes people call me, and say, do you want to do a shift. So I do. I wanted to one day do a pie. Id never done a pie in my life. I went in to this production. I was doing pies all day. And that was a laugh. The owner came in because he knows me, and he asked me about doing pies. I told hm I had never done it before but now I love doing pies.

Well, then maybe just to finish, this is the question I usually end with, with all the experience that you've had, what would your advice be to someone starting out as a chef or starting out in hospitality?

Try to make your staff become like you, become a leader. People can sometimes be scared to train staff in a good way to make them become high level. Help them to become like you because they give you a possibility to grow and also it will make them start loving what they do. Many people try to limit the staff. And then people get bored. I learned a lot from people who didnt have any experience making pizza. I learned a lot. I was training them how to make pizza, but it taught me a lot: how to be organised, how to be cleaner, how to focus on things. Because went from working for one pizzeria to dealing with seven pizzeria and looking for 40 staff. It was completely different. I learned, so I think everyone can learn.

Made A Napoli | Melbourne Pizza Catering