Nabil Ansari

Hi Nabil. Nice to meet you.

Thank you for coming.

Thank you. I was excited, because I've been following you on Instagram and you've been doing so many great things. When I received the invitation to lunch the week after next, I was sad that I will miss it, but then I thought, what a great chance to get in touch and hear your story.

Hopefully you can come back when it has launched.

Absolutely. I came to the launch of Firebird a few years ago. Has it changed direction, or have you changed the direction of the food?

The direction of the restaurant is still the same. We are still doing Vietnamese food, but I think the difference now is that we are doing Vietnamese and French because of the French influence in Vietnam. There was a little bit of French influence when they started the restaurant. But one of the reasons I took the job was to put in more of a French influence into the menu.

Does that come from working at The European?

Obviously, I learned a lot at European, and then when I moved to Sunda Dining, the sauces were actually made the French way, like making a duck stock, a chicken stock, and then you have your base stock, then you put curry paste into it and reduce it, and it becomes like a curry duck jus or a lamb jus. Over here, it's the same. Our core flavours are Vietnamese, but we do use a lot of French techniques in finishing the dish. A good example would be the new duck dish. The brining of the duck is all Asian flavours, I would would say, with a lot of pandan, lemongrass, ginger, and orange. But the French influence is the way the duck jus is made. It's made like the traditional way. We start off by making a roasted chicken stock, and then we reduce that, we put duck bones into it, then reduce that again, and then flavour it with a little bit of oyster sauce, soy sauce, and some Vietnamese five spice mix into that as well. It is served with radicchio salad, which is again, very French. It has radicchio, coriander leaves and orange segments. So it's mix of both French and Vietnamese. Which I think is more interesting and flavourful. There are a lot of beautiful Vietnamese restaurants around in Melbourne, but no one's really doing French and Vietnamese together like this.

It's so true about French and Vietnamese. I was just talking to someone the other day about Hanoi. I went to Vietnam in 2014. I'm also a French teacher, so when I was wandering around Hanoi and just admiring the architecture, I got lost and an older lady came up to me and she asked me in French, "Vous etes perdu?/ "Are you lost?" I loved that she didn't ask me in English. She asked me in French. It was so great. Ok so you have changed the menu.

Yes. When Firebird first opened, they had a couple of dishes which are still on the menu. One of those dishes was the Scotch egg. We are still keeping the Scotch egg as it is, but we are just adding a little bit more chive satay into the mix. We plan to go ahead with 21 dishes and out of the 21 dishes, we are keeping two of the Firebird dishes. One of them is the Scotch egg and the other is the chicken. Its a whole marinated chicken. We brine it and then we marinate it in ginger, galangal and onion marinade, and it gets served with a chilli nuoc mam. I think it should stay on the menu. It's delicious. I don't want to change that. So there are two dishes that are staying, and then the rest of the dishes are changing.

Why the move to Firebird now?

Good question. Many people have asked me this question actually. I was at Sunda for four and a half years. I started there when they first opened, literally in the second week. And I started almost from the bottom and then moved all the way to sous chef. It was good. With Khan's help, I was running Sunda for almost two years because when he opened Aru, he got busy with Aru.

Sunda had already given me some exposure in terms of leadership and the next goal I had, or challenge, was that I wanted to challenge myself first to look for a new job where I could be more of a leader and running a kitchen. This job came up through a friend who told me Firebird were looking for a new head chef. The role is more about team building because the restaurant was always being busy, and the menu was still working – is still working actually. Its busy and we get good feedback. The main reason for taking this job was to grow my leadership skills and training the team. It's very hard. A chef can have a very good recipe and his food can be solid, but the hard part is he's not going to be cooking every day. He has to have a strong team who can cook for him.

That's exactly right.

The first couple of weeks were more about setting up the kitchen, how I would like it and then the second main focus was changing the team culture, building the team and giving them a guide where to start. Which we have achieved. We have a solid team of eight chefs, which is pretty good for these times.

That feels like a luxury, from what I've heard.

I come from a fine dining restaurant, and this is more casual, but I think your standards remain the same. Let it be fine dining or let it be casual. A chef will have his own standards and that's it. We started building our standards; this is the way we are going to be doing things from now. Slowly, slowly getting into the rhythm and understanding, making the team understand why we are doing things like this. That was a long process, but a very good process, I would say.

And how did you know how to do that? Does being a leader come naturally to you?

It comes from my dad, I would say. I love cooking, but I also love people. What I ideally enjoy is sharing my skills with others. Because here initially there was a feeling of oh, I wouldn't want to work in a fine dining restaurant because I'm not good, I wouldn't have the skills. From my point of view, it all starts with the basics. We all use the same chopping boards, we all have our own knives. And it starts with the basics, that's all you need, and it's how you develop those skills that can eventually make you a good chef. So it was about sharing those things, what I've learned in my past experience and in the end sharing things with them. Now we all love the culture we have.

I guess it's about trust as well. I was listening to you say before, you know, you can't be here every day, so you have to trust that your team is going to do it the way it should be done, but they have to trust you enough to want to do that, don't they?

Exactly. It was more about bringing back that passion of cooking. I think what has happened over the lockdowns and closures, people have lost something. Everyone wants to make money, that's true, and to survive you need to make money. I have seen people get a bit side-tracked thinking just about the money but not having a passion for doing this job.

That's a hard spot to be in. The first thing I did was I listened. Okay, you want money, this group is good, we'll pay you. But at the same time, we need to build that passion. There's no point you coming here just doing what I tell you and then going out again at the end of the night, it's not going to get you anywhere. One of the things I always say is you have to do what I ask you to do, but you need to think why I'm asking you to do it. Because if I keep on telling you to do things, you'll just do it, but in the end, you're not growing, you're just following my order. We have got into this habit where we listen to each other and then we kind of question each other as well: Okay, so I'm going to use this garnish, but what is this garnish going to do on the plate? And then we ask every other person. Even this whole menu which I'm doing, I've never been to Vietnam and I havent had much Vietnamese exposure, but I have two Vietnamese chefs. So I asked them all for their help in making the menu and we worked together to come up with recipes. That was really good and it was really fun. I can already see that everyone's motivated as well, and there's a passion. It was about teamwork.

I did have a menu before I took the job. I thought I was going to be the head chef here so I thought I should just have a menu ready to go and I sent the menu to the directors and the executive chef and they said, let's do it. And then as soon as I got in, I didn't think anyone was ready for it, because not many people like change. I love change, I'm all for it. But reading the room over here, many people were not happy. So then I thought, if I change everything, Ill lose staff. So I had to scrap that menu. I literally threw it away. We ran with the current menu and made small baby steps to change. We have finally decided the 7th of February is going to be the big menu change and all of the chefs are super excited to go into it.

It makes sense though, doesn't it, to come to bring that forward as a team rather than a new person coming in and taking over. I can see how that would be discordant.

Exactly. Because I have chefs who have been here since the opening, so for three years, and I could see that they were not ready to accept me, but at the same time, they did give me a chance. Some people might have said to just let them leave. But for me, they've already spent so much time here, they probably know the kitchen better than I do. They're used to the environment and how things operate and it's good to have those people on your team. It was good to listen to where they're coming from and then take those steps. Then we are fighting together.

Well done. How exciting.

Where did your passion come from? Do you have early food memories?

It all comes from family, I guess. I grew up in Dubai. We used to go India only once a year during school summer holidays. It was good growing up in Dubai. I got exposed to Indian food a lot because my parents would cook at home, but they would also go to restaurants here and there. And it would always be Indian restaurants. My mum and dad both loved eating out. I thought that was pretty cool. But coming from an Indian background, it was more like, oh, you have to become a doctor or an accountant or an engineer. So that was always the end. But I didnt want to become any of those. I wanted to become a pilot. I applied to a couple of schools and got in, but it was just too hard for me. And again, there was no passion when I started doing it. It sounds good to want to do something, but it wasnt for me, and I dropped out. In the meantime, my mum had a small catering business and that's where I started. I helped her and learned more about cooking, especially Indian cooking, I would say.

From a particular region?

My parents are from the north; Mumbai, and Muslim and Muslim food is quite rich, I would say . It was mostly dishes from the north. Thats how I started getting into it. But then, my parents didn't want me to just be helping my mom. The next goal would be to get a degree or a diploma in something and to hang it on the wall. My parents asked, why didnt I make it a career? I looked up some culinary schools and for some reason, William Angliss in Australia came up first and I thought, you know what, I'm just going to go with this one. My parents were really hoping that I would go to America because I have got extended family there. But in the end I didn't want to stay with family anymore. I wanted to be more independent and do something on my own. So William Angliss it was.

Did you know anyone here?

No one.

That's impressive.

It was good. I was able to get a job in a small place on my third day without any experience.

I just said that I had worked in my mum's kitchen and I was looking for a job, and the head chef was Indian. It was a pretty dodgy space, but it was good. It was my first actual job for three months when I arrived in Melbourne. And on my third day here.

And then you started at William Angliss.

Yes. I started William Angliss. I didn't know much about cash payments and taxing, and I was being underpaid, but I thought I was getting paid a lot. I was getting paid $13 an hour. And I thought it was so much money. Then a friend of mine asked if I was paying tax? I had no idea, because in Saudi and in Dubai, we don't have tax.

Oh, right.

So I wasn't familiar with it. Then for some reason a scout came to William Angliss from the Pancake Parlour and I do like pancakes and I had always wanted to work in an American style diner. I thought I could be good at making pancakes. I got the pancake job at Pancake Parlour and I still make really good pancakes.

I've never been to Pancake Parlour. My partner Charlie has been talking about it lately lately, so I think we have to go.

It's not bad. It's good for breakfast. I worked at Pancake Parlour for six months, and at that stage I was still learning, and I didn't know much about fine dining. At William Angliss there is a subject where you have to do a practical and The European happened to do a dinner at the restaurant at William Angliss. I got talking to the executive chef at that time, Ian Curley, and he asked whether I wanted a job. So I got the job as a breakfast chef at The European and then spent around a year and a half at The European. The European is very big. It might look small, but we share the same kitchen between The European, City Wine Shop, Spring Street Grocer, Siglo and Supper Club. It was really good to get all that exposure.

Absolutely.I read that your parents wanted you to work in more of a hotel setting. What was the story there?

What happened was, again, a very Asian mentality. There is no fine dining back home. There is now, but back in the day, all good chefs would be in hotels. So you have the Taj Hotels, you have the Oberoi hotels and this and that. When I told them that I worked at a one hat restaurant, The European, they said whatever, but do you work in a hotel? I told them it wasnt a hotel, just a restaurant. I sent them a picture of the front door and they said, oh, that's so old. Ok, the building is very old, but it's an institution, right?

That's right. That's so funny.

I had moved around enough there though so I thought about another job. I started applying and I didn't even know that the Windsor Hotel was on the next block. I looked for a job there and got one. The executive chef at that time was Joel Alderson. He gave me a good exposure to the kitchen. They had a dining room where they would do set menus. But for some reason, when I joined, literally the week after they stopped doing that, and then he resigned as well. I stayed at the Hotel Windsor doing room service and bar food, but I didn't want to do that. I didn't enjoy it as much because it wasn't as busy and there were so many chefs not doing very much.I had been used to working in a very busy environment, and I wanted to keep busy, so I wasn't having as good a time. I was about to resign, but then literally that week Khan came from Sydney. The news was that the Hotel Windsor as opening a new restaurant called Sunda.

At that stage, because I had been at the hotel for a bit, I was appointed as a chaperone to Khan to show him around the hotel if he needed anything. Then Khan and I just got along. We did the tasting together. He did a big tasting for the owners and the director. That was like a lightbulb moment for me. I was like, wow, this food looks sick and this is what I want to do in the future. He started off at the hotel while the restaurant was still being built. He was building stock and doing the menu testing at the hotel. I didn't have much to do with that, but I was just keeping an eye on it and I really wanted to be part of it. He had his team at that stage already, and then Sunda opened. He said that he would take me when it opened, but he didnt realise how busy they would be. And they were busy straight off. After a week, I got transferred therefrom the hotel and it was really good.

I started as a demi chef there, just learning. It was very different exposure for me as well. The European was good. It was very old school. It was fine dining, but it was not as finessed in the plating. It was more like, oh, you have this beautiful steak which we will serve with a nice pepper sauce, and that's it and some chips on the side. But at Sunda it was like, you have this lamb, it needs the lamb jus, it needs a cashew cream, it needs the salt bush, it needs the glaze. One dish had more than seven to eight components. I didnt know how you could put all that on one plate. It was fabulous, but I hadnt been exposed to it, so I was struggling. Again, as I said, it all comes down to the skills. You do it again and again and again, and you get better. I would say like the first three to four months were super hard, just trying to get familiar with it all. It was a very small time team, only six of us at that time. Khan was just pushing me to learn and be better. And he did give me very good guidance in terms how to be better. From there I became chef de partie, moved around and then became sous chef, then senior sous chef/head chef.

I feel as though you've had such great opportunities. Clearly you have created that for yourself because you have a passion and you are obviously a hard worker. I've spoken to Ian Curley and to Joel and to Khan, and they're all great people.

Yeah, exactly. So from the bat, I think, I was influenced by the right people.

What do you think it is about food and cooking that keeps you here and obviously still excited about it?

It's the joy it brings to people. I think I can be very creative on the plate, but then you do it and you think it's good, but it's good for yourself and I like the joy or the excitement I see in other people eating my food and giving me feedback. That brings me more joy. I think if I was flying a plane, I would be flying from one spot to another spot, but it's just not bringing me any joy. It's about connecting with people. As I said, I'm more of a people person.

Is that why you did Ansari at Home as well?

That was funny. We had that popup and that got me a lot of exposure and it connected me over the period of time with beautiful people. They follow me on Instagram and asked me, or when am I doing my Duck Samosa again? Or when they can have my biryani? Literally on Sunday, I went to a friend's place, he's a doctor. He works near St. Vincent and he would come to my pop-up and I didn't know him at the time. But then he reached out on Instagram to say that he had already been three times that week and he loved the fish I did. The common interest we had was obviously the food, but the wines as well. We built a good relationship and he would say, I want to have biryani and I would say, I want to have Burgundy wines. I was at his place on Sunday and we had some very nice Indian barbecue, some biryani and some really delicious Burgundy wine. So it works out great. And it's not just one, there were a few other people who have been in touch who want to catch up and cook. It has definitely got me a lot of exposure. I thought that cooking would be only bringing me exposure in the restaurant industry, but there are doctors, =finance advisors, nurses who all just want to go out. And now recently a lot of wine suppliers. So it's been good.

I love it. With all that in mind, and the fact that you have been cooking since 2015, what would your advice be to young people who are thinking of becoming chefs?

Don't lose your passion. I think the most important part is if you want to be a chef, to push towards it. Many people give up. I did think once or twice, oh, I can't do this anymore. But you have to challenge yourself and never give up. As Ben Shewry would say, never give up. Its so true. Because if you give up, you're just going to lose your passion in cooking. That's the way forward in this industry because, one of the other things I think is that many people are already cooking when I'm cooking. And that can be challenging. But you know what, I'm not going to compete with anyone. I'm going to be cook my food and I'm just going to give the diners a good experience. If people buy it, they buy it. If they don't, it's fine. There are other good people cooking already. I think being less competitive makes for better progress.

And don't burn bridges. Many, many chefs do that, and I don't know why. Khan and I are still really good friends. We are cooking next week together. We still hang out with each other. And I have friends at The European. It would be funny, we would forget to order things here and there at Sunda. If I forgot to order oysters, because I have a good relationship with The European, I would literally run there, borrow oysters from them, use them at Sunda and next day repay them with our oysters. Thats the trust we've built. And even today when I go to The European,there are smiling faces and everyone's happy, and you still have a good time.

I'd like to think there's a community amongst hospitality people, and I know there is competition and it's creative and so on and sometimes bridges do get burnt, but it's so much nicer for everyone if they dont. I mean, food should bring people together.

Exactly. In the end, that's what I told Khan: once my menu is done, you all have to come. It's not a choice, you have to come because it'll give me more joy. I'll be nervous for sure, but it's something that I want to show them and I want to share it to them. It's thanks to them and their guidance and support that I even had this opportunity. If I hadnt worked in those places and learned from them, I don't think I would be here.

So in the end, it's all connected. That's perfect.

Firebird, 223 High Street, Prahran