Nabila Kadri

You know how they say my four walls make me feel like I'm in my zone; it's where I can be the best version of myself and the moment I have to walk out of that, it's very daunting for someone like me. I love the idea of it and the philosophy behind it because everyone should do that. I was just thinking the other day, how did I get here? And I think, I just had my head down and when I looked up, they said, its your turn. I thought, really? Ok, it's my turn. I don't really know how it all evolved; I just know that I had my head down since I was 19 and at 24 someone said, ok, it's your turn and it was Teage Ezard. I thought, me? We've got all these great chefs and you want me to be the sous chef. So I can totally relate to the Etta head chef you spoke to. I distinctly remember Teage saying to me, when you've got it, you've got it. And in my head I was saying, I think you just haven't found anyone so youre asking me.

But do you think, and that's something I talked about with Rosheen at Etta.do you think it is harder as women, because we are naturally self-deprecating and have that imposter syndrome. Do you think it is harder?

I thinkharder is a very simple word to useit's not about genderI guess women in general, we dont accept compliments very easily. I think it has always been our defence; we have to be better; we have to be more giving. I don't know where we learned that from. So I think, yes, it is harder for women to accept compliments and I do thinkyes, in a nutshell, it is harder, but it is a much more complicated word than that. But it is harder to be accepted as a serious candidate.

I guess longevity is what people fear the most. Last year when I was pregnant, thank God it was Covid, so I felt like people were kinder to me with the notion of it because there was nothing to do for the next six months, so it was great that I was pregnant. But I got defensive when they started asking, so whats next? I'm 34. I started this when I was 19, what do you mean, what's next? I'll take my maternity leave and then I will graft myself in a different direction, within the kitchen. The kitchen and the food industry have branched out tremendously. When I first started in 2004, what was MasterChef? I remember my grandma saying, really? Just get married; we are Arabs, that's what Arabs do. But for me, I wanted to cook for a living, and she thought I was being silly. For me it was running awaynot from home so much, but from the ideology of always giving and not receiving. I think because I saw my mum, who is such a strong woman and all my aunties around me are all such talented, educated women who all, once I was in my twenties, asked if I was ready? Ready for what? I was happy. Everyone needs a companion, but companionship should not be a need, it should be an organic relationship with somebody. I didn't want that at 19I thought I was supposed to fall in love 600 times like my dad did. I'm my fathers daughter before I am my mothers daughter.

Absolutely.

And I guess it is like that for a lot of cultures, and I love that idea of people coming together over food, but how did you go from the idea that your parents had, that this is just something we do; cook together, eat together, to making it something you do for a living?

I actually wanted to be a pilot when I was younger. I wanted to get into aeronautical engineering or be a pilot, but at that point, having three brothers and sisters after me, when I looked at it from a financial perspective for my father. Being the eldestand the eldest always goes through that syndrome of your parents working through what the next step is. I got a bicyclemy youngest sister got a BMW X5so I thought, how does this work? I always get short changed! I had to be home by 8pm, my youngest sister went to Amsterdam on her own. So I guess becoming a chef was a little bit of a rebellious move because being a pilot wasnt financially the most intelligent move for the rest of the kids, so I thought about what I wanted to do next and I thought about food and hospitality. Dad has always been in the hospitality industry, not as a chef, but he is the dry goods supplier. He worked for a bakery company called Master Baker who, at that time in Dubai and Abu Dhabi and the UAE were quite a big deal. I got to travel a lot with Dad in terms of him picking me up and taking me to the back of a hotel, waiting for him and I got to see a lot of back of house things and something just connected with me. Also my mum is a fantastic cook. It is something that naturally came to all of us. I have 16 first cousins and I can happily say 10 of them cook really well. I think it naturally came to me and then when I said I wanted to be in hospitality, my grandmother and everyone else said no, no, no. But because they said no, I just pursued it even harder. It was a rebellious move. Im not so much a feminist, although my sister thinks I am in denial, I just wanted to be treated equally. They would give any boy in the family the choice to choose what they wanted to do and if failure was an option, they would allow him to have that path because thats their right; their right to blossom and experience that path. I guess I didnt want to be deprived of that.

My mother and father asked if it was what I really wanted to do and dad said, right, start looking for universities, this is your budget. Mum told me all the boxes I needed to tick for us to be able to look into it. So mum and dad were quite encouraging. Initially it was rebellious, but eventually as I began to research it more and understand what the next step could be, I fell in love with it.

When I first got to Australia, everyone had the idea that most immigrants take this profession to get their Visas. For me, that was offensive. I got my back up. That was not what I was here for. So, then I thought, right, I am going to be one of the best and I am going to show everyone why I did this. If we want to talk about globalisation, then our minds must be globalised first and that is something that is very close to my heart. I decided I was going to be the best and I clearly remember the other people in the class saying, oh no, not this one again, as I would be answering questions and putting up my hand. I wanted to represent where we came from in the most ethical and honest way that someone can represent their heritage. It made me determined that if I was going to do something, I was going to do it with honesty and fairness, and be humbled by the experience, which is exactly where my path took me. Its a saying in Hindi, and a young man said it to me one day at Hawker. He said, chef, I started with you at the same level, and now you are up there. I told him I didnt even know how I got there. He said, you know chef, when people are focussed on something, they leave the crowd behind, and they just keep walking and the crowd follows. That made me feel so proud. He told me I was different and people who are different separate themselves from the crowd. Bless. But then he said, here's my resignation, I hate hospitality. Thats not a bad thing, hospitality wasnt for him.

I guess he had to find his own path. Had you been to Melbourne before you came here?

We had travelled quite a bit before as kids because dad travelled and lived in different places. We had never been to Melbourne, but he lived in Malaysia and Singapore. When I started looking for schools, one of the reasons I picked Australia was that I didn't have any family here and as Asians we have family everywhere and I truly wanted to do something without using too many resources. I wanted to find my success without leaning on too many people. When you have a big family, you tend to lean on other people too much and in the long run it becomes detrimental. I picked Melbourne because I wanted to do it on my own and then I saw some wonderful schools like William Angliss and Australian College of Tourism and Hospitality which was great at the time. It fitted my budget. And I also wanted to be introduced to alcohol, not because I wanted to come and party and let loose, but more so because I knew through going to Europe that wine is a big part of hospitality, and it was imperative that I have all the elements to make me the best version.

The first job I took was at a supermarket because I wanted to know all the produce in Australia and the very next job was the liquor store next to it, purely because I thought that if I knew the local produce, I would know the way people think or behave. That's why my first job was a supermarket rather than a caf because I knew how to cook, but I didnt know what to cook with. For example, I had never heard of roquette.

That's so strategic.

Well, that's because of my parents. I remember when I was about 16, my dad made me go to the market and then when I got back he asked me how much I had spent and wanted to know where the missing $2 was. I remember being annoyed about that, but it taught me a lesson; it wasnt about the money but about accountability. When I came here, I never asked anyone for money and I understood what they had meant when I was younger.

Where did you do your apprenticeship?

Australian College of Tourism and Hospitality. It then became Carrick. I did that for two years.

Was that all class work?

Yes, all class work. I was really upset about that but then I did my third year with them because I didnt feel ready to execute things they way I felt I should. I got a one year practical class apprenticeship at the Meridien. Then I applied for my residency.

I was lucky enough because I was working up the road at a fancy caf called Gaia, but now when I think about it, I think we did poached eggs in a microwave, there is nothing fancy about that, but it was lovely. Then I worked at Lynchs while I was doing my apprenticeship and I remember that I went and bought my first knife as soon as I had done my apprenticeship and then walked straight into Gingerboy.

Was that the first time you had done that style of Asian food?

Yes. I was trained in French, technically and then I had a good two years doing caf work and I learned so much. Thats what happens in brasseries and cafes, you get your hands dirty in every way, whether it is ordering, or working as a kitchenhand or bar work, taking the chairs and tables in; you become so versatile. I encourage everyone to do that. I always say that fancy places are great and your basic study should be as technical as you can but when you have finished that you should always go into a restaurant that is outside your comfort zone to challenge who you truly are and to find out whether you truly like the industry. For the first five years, your workmanship should always be dedicated to the industry so that when you look up, you will be ready. The industry will give back to those who first invest in it.

I worked for Lynch, but it was too quiet for me and they all had their big hats and the cheese platters were huge with all the cheeses under the sun no one eats the whole thing. Thats when I wanted to shy away from that slow fine dining. We were still making bearnaiseI love all that, but I had evolved.

So yes, Gingerboy. I remember walking down Bourke Street and the sign was very shimmery; it was gold and I actually thought it was a massage parlour. But I walked down and then saw all the hustle bustle and I remember that Chris Donellan was on the pass at the time, and it was just the business. I knew thats what I wanted to do; I wanted to be one of the cool kids on the block. I walked in and I was the only girl, and I was aware of everyone trying to check me out. For a 19 yar old, I was super excited to be in one of the trendier places in town. The very next day I had an interview and the rest was probably one of the best experiences of my life. I stayed there for five years.

That's a long time for a chef to stay somewhere.

Gingerboy from 2008 to 2013 was one of its kind; there was no Chin Chin or Lucy Liu, and that patch of the city was very happening with Grossi and The European. I loved it and I wanted more. We did everything from scratch. Everything was so precise and I learned so much in terms of time management and Teage Ezard was very strict. We used to have mystery diners every week and if something went wrong, he wanted an answer or he wanted somebody to be accountable.

Did that work for you? I have spoken to other chefs and that particular kitchen did not work for them.

I remember Teage asking me that question. He called me and asked if I would like to be his head chef because I had been his sous chef for so long and I should have a crack at this. I said that I would go in. I never wanted the job. I just went in because I wanted to say g'day to Teage. He said to me, why did you leave? I told him that was an exit interview question and that three years had passed, and we dont wash our laundry in public. You should have asked me that three years ago. Every band goes through this as well, you have your highs and once you reach that peak if you don't sustain itand that's where I think the hospitality industry can be very toxic. Humility gets very easily lost in smoke and mirrors. I absolutely resent that. I would love to be one of those chefs who reach great heights of success with my team and allow every individual to thrive at their dream. Not my dream, at their dream. If they think that working in the mornings at a prep shift would get them to fulfill their dream, so be it. Some say thats not real cheffing; six doubles, feeling miserable and depressed, that's real cheffing. We are not in the 80s anymore. We dont need to do that. Where there is creativity, there is no room for ego. Once upon a time, chefs didnt get paid properly and we didnt get acknowledged. Today we do. We get paid a lot more than some nurses or doctors do for less study and less investment in terms of intellectcommon sense, yes; hard work; yes. It is imperative that we know that this is a form of bullying. The industry has evolved. People are so much happier and why shouldn't a chef be happy?

The first rule I remember changing when Chris (Lucas) told me he wanted me to take a break from Kisum, and he knew I loved it and was on a journey there, but he needed me to run Hawker there for a couple of years because it needed a strong chef and they had been struggling with that style of chef. I said I didn't want to do it, because I am the only female head or executive chef amongst all the Lucas venues (Baby, Chin Chin, Hawker, Kisum, Yakimono and Society). I remember telling him that I can be disciplined, I can be loud, I can be strict, but I cannot be manipulative. I am not a politician, I'm a cook, I'm a chef and I entertain. We say in Hindi, I can teach you how to cook, but I can't teach you how to eat and I can't tell you how to feed people. Those are the two things that make a great chef. The cooking part, I can teach you the technical things. I'm a feeder; I feed people. I entertain people. I ask them how their day is. I dont go around spreading rumours.

How did you make it work?

The first rule I brought in was that everyone needs to have a rotating roster. I split the team in two with one team that does a month of mornings and no weekends and another that does nights and weekends and then a month later, we swap. Nobody should be deprived of a weekend, and nobody should be deprived of a week of. That's not fair. And if my team isn't strong, that's on me. That's because I didn't train them and has nothing to do with them. You can't use that excuse when there are 20 of them.

That sounds as though you have a really good handle on leadership. Did that come naturally to you or did you learn that as you went along?

I think I've learned it as Ive gone along. I think I have always wanted to do the right thing, but as I said, female chefs have a hard timeI guess I shied away from it because I thought it would be frowned upon as me being weak, or being 'female'. When I got my opportunity to stand on my own at Hawker, without anyone above me, as executive chef, I felt as though it was my turn to do this and show the healthy cultural changes that come with it. I mean, did I make everyone stand in a line and look left, look right and say that we all failed today because the service was horrible? One section goes down, we all go down. It is the principle of teamwork. I will not have anyone pointing fingers and anyone who points a finger, cleans the kitchen, even if you are the Rockstar. Which mother tells the child that she loves one child more than the other child. It is the same for me. My team is the reason why somebody comes up to the pass and says, chef, that was a great show. The only reason that it is a good show and Im not barking, but narrating an orchestra, is because my team is listening. The only reason it looks so fascinating is because everyone harmoniously says, yes chef!

Now, I'm a French teacher, so of course I want to ask you about your time in France. What made you go to the South of France, was it Uzs?

That's right. My father married my step mum about 18 years ago now and she is from Corsica. She is a French teacher as well, in Dubai. She always goes back to France every year with the two girls and I guess at first I was busy doing my life and then when I met my partner, two years down the line he said he had to go back to get his Visa and see his family. I was 29 and I thought, I can get a working Visa to go. Anne Sophie Pic is someone I have always admired and I would have loved to have worked for a strong female chef who narrates herself, who has a calm demeanour about her but has also shown tremendous finesse over the years and I thought, she is my lady, Im going. Also Michel Bras, because we were around that area as well. But I missed both those boats because I was in Uzs I couldnt get in and then by the time I went in the winter season, I was a bit late. Also because I dont speak French that well, it became a little bit harder as well. I was grateful that I went to Uzs as well because I learned a lot of kitchen lingo.

Compared to Melbourne, because Melbourne is obviously a real foodie city, but I know when I lived in the South of France, the market food was amazingtomatoes actually tasted like tomatoes and apricots and so on. And just the way they eatevery time I sat down with my French friends, I would have to wait and watch because there is a way to eat everything

I love that as well. Before I left I was working at Baby as a sous chef and my head chef was Jonathan Alston, somebody I love and adore. Today where I am, I would really like to give credit to chefs and bosses who have constantly reminded me that there is no difference whether you are a boy or a girl. I would love for you to know this and without them I would not be where I am. And Chris is definitely one of them. Jonathan Alston is one of them and at Kisum, Joshua Bedell, he works at Nobu now and he is one of them. They have championed women left, right and centre. Jonathan Alston was the best English chef I have ever worked for. Of course I got yelled at, but I was ready for France after working for Jonathan. After being hammered for even 10 grams extra tuna and being put under pressure as a sous chef, I am so grateful to him. I remember him telling me that he worked for Marco so he and Gordon were the same class and he always said he didnt really like Gordon. I said, of course you don't, he's famous! But he was very kind to me and after working with him, I asked him whether I should go to France and he told me it was the best thing I could do for myself. Then when I went there, as you said, it was the most beautiful thing. So I didn't end up where I thought I would there, but a friend of ours was opening a restaurant and she told me if I could be sous chef, the head chef would teach me all these things.I thought it was going to be the dream job. But seasons are such a big thing in France, and he just didnt show up to Uzs. Well he came, but he didn't like the town so I had to be the head chef.

My husband told me I could do it and he couldn't understand why I was questioning myself all the time. But I was in France, I didnt know what they were talking about, I was out of my comfort zone. But one thing led to another and I went to the markets and I had the produce and I just said, I'll do it. When he asked me why, I said because the produce speaks for itself. I don't even need to do anything. I'll just get a tomato, give you some sauce and say voil! I was so inspired. I loved it. So many herbsand berriesand the mushroom picking. I loved it. For a girl who came from a small town in Pune and then went to Dubai, it was like reading a book for me. It was like Alice in Wonderland. I was a Muslim girl from a small town who was in one of the most beautiful Provenal villages and I get producers just bringing me all that love on a tray and I get to play with that love; I'll take it. I felt blessed. The language? After that I didnt even care. There was a young boy called Jonathan who said he would work for me, but he hadn't worked in a kitchen before, but could speak a little bit of English and he was the only one in the kitchen who could speak English and so I took him on and today he is so strong. I was so impressed. I got very lucky with my sous chef and with Jonathan. They were both French, but they appreciated working in that brasserie because we were doing jungle curry and they had never heard of jungle curry in a small French village and they wanted to do something different. I remember making a lassi and he said, ok, that is your drink, heres a Chateauneuf du Pape.

I learned a lot and I realised how much richer I was for it. Again, honesty and hard work have no language. Its a connection and I have made some fantastic friends and a memory for life. I think it has made me a better chef because I had to go back to basics. I loved it. I think a lot of us in fancy restaurants and bigger teams get so caught up with our tweezers and our fancy aprons, that we forget to say please sometimes. It reminded me why we cook. Very quickly we climbed up the ladder and very quickly we were number two and then number one for the season.

Congratulations. Thats amazingand in France.

I know. I still don't know how I got there; I am still surprised.

Hearing the way you talk I think I have a good understanding of how you get there. So, you're part of this really great Lucas Group. Is the dream still to have your own place?

In a perfect world, yes. I do believe, thoughand if you asked me the same question three or four years ago, I would have said yes. But today after Covid and the pandemic I think there is so much more I could be doing than just a pandemic. Id like to give back. I have seen so many people in pain and so many people that I can't help. Food wastage, over consumption happens so often that I would like to be part of something more than just a restaurant. I think it is time to give back to the community with all the knowledge that I have gathered and that hopefully keep gathering. I have heard stories from within Australia of children going to bed hungry. The poverty levels we have breaks my heart. What is the point of a $110 glass when I know there are children who have had nothing to eat. I told my husband this and I hope I get to work with more charities. There is a long way to go but after this year, it gives me a golf ball in my throat when I think about my daughter. I would like to leave her a legacy and the legacy is beyond just food; it should be how food has given to so many. Yes, a restaurant is in play, but before that I need to create my platform, a pathway for myself where I can brand it out in a way where I can pitch to people who want to give back. I don't know where to start. But the intention is there. That's the bigger picture. Then there is Indian food. I always tell people I am an Australian Indian chef. I would like to champion Australian native ingredients and make them accessible. Food should be affordable and delicious but I should be able to showcase my heritage with my technical knowledge in an environment which will allow people to thrive. So yes, it is there. But profit is not what I am looking for.