Oliver Hughes

Ollie, you've been based in Sydney. Are you going to move to Melbourne?

No. Once I'm done here, well, when the kitchen's at a point, when I don't need to be here, I go back to Sydney. And then we're opening up another Henrietta in Parramatta the first week in November, so the whole process over again.

Now, I'm not really starting from the beginning here, but I saw in your bio that you were really interested in Asian food. But now you're cooking Levantine Middle Eastern. How's that?

If you'd asked me two years ago if I thought I'd be cooking Middle Eastern Lebanese food, I would've said no chance. Esca the company, we have I think eight or nine restaurants. Three cafes at the time, which I was running. Then Covid stuff happened. Cafes are harder to make money, so they transitioned to restaurants. Ibby and Jorge approached me and said, Hey, I know you haven't done it before, but how do you fancy taking the lead at Henrietta? I thought, why not? So, there were a few late nights watching YouTube videos. I came in at Henrietta, Surry Hills and took maybe six months just getting in there, seeing how things are. Obviously we've got some great chefs in the company already. Paul Farag, who's possibly one of the best chefs in the country at the moment with Middle Eastern food. Then there's Luca Lonati at Nour as well and having those guys to work with, see what they're doing, helps me out a lot. But like I say, modern day things, I've watched a lot of videos on YouTube of little old ladies in Lebanon making stuff the traditional way. I just kind of found my feet that way.

Are they flavours that you've been drawn to in the past? Even in terms of eating.

No. Where I'm from in England, outside of Manchester, there's not much in the terms of Middle Eastern food. When I came over to Sydney was the first time trying Lebanese style food with the restaurant, Nour. In terms of flavours, I've been involved with, but not directly. So you subconsciously familiarize yourself with it through the restaurants that are also in the group. I had a head start that way.

And in terms of being Executive, that's a big title. How different is that?

Yes. I came into the company just as a chef. I came for a head chef position. But it had already been taken. I really liked the company and the chat that I had with Ibby, so I agreed to come in as a chef. The head chef at the time, it was his first head chef position, and he couldn't handle the pressure, so there was a transition of about four weeks before I became the head chef.

Had you been head chef before?

Yes. But I only started doing cafes when I came to Australia. Originally, I came to Melbourne, I was here for maybe a year, and then it got to winter and I thought I've come from the north of England. I don't need to be de-icing my car anymore. So I made the move to Sydney,

You don't live in Melbourne for the weather. So you went to Sydney. Is there a cafe culture in England now? I'm just thinking it's such a big thing here and in New Zealand.

No, I was, surprised though. I went back for the first time in seven years last year. Even going to Manchester, the cafe's don't open until eight o'clock in the morning. It's still your full English breakfast kind of thing. If you're really lucky, you might get an eggs benedict or something, but there's really not much of a cafe culture in England.

I remember being over there and I think there was a New Zealand run caf, Flat White or something in London, that was good coffee. And it's the same in New York. You kind of have to go to Australian or New Zealand cafes to get what we think of as good coffee. So now that step up from head chef to executive chef, is that a mental shift?

It was kind of a natural transition to me, so I kind of, it was lucky because we had Cuckoo Callay, Surrey Hills and Cuckoo Calay, Newtown. Newtown kind of ran itself, and then the head chef there left. I'd just do the same thing I was doing in Surrey Hills in Newtown, and then I started to put my staff in there. What I didn't realize at first was the amount of paperwork and back of house stuff that came with it. The role of an executive is like any single chef role. You just put all those together. I still need to be in the kitchen just to make sure things are going the way they should. If it's not me, it's not my standards. You have your head chefs, but they have a different standard to what you might have or if something goes wrong, its on me. Opening a place is different. Its a bit more hands-on, full on, get the kitchen set up ready. But once I leave here, I'll just oversee three places. So that'll probably look more like paperwork a couple of days a week, making sure wages are right, rosters. And then spending a day in each place, just keeping an eye on things.

I think it's really wise for chefs to move toward to a position where they're not on their feet all day and doing all that, but there's still that love of cooking.

Oh, yes. I still have that.

So you'd still want to be doing all that as well?

I think I enjoy it more now because when something becomes routine and you're in the same place and you're doing the same thing over and over, you naturally start to get a little bit bored of it. But with this role, after two days in the office staring at a computer, I am more than ready to jump back in the kitchen and be on the pans, be on the pass, the charcoal, anything. It has almost helped my passion for cooking a little bit more, not being in the kitchen five days a week.

That makes sense. What is it about cooking that you love?

I think all chefs secretly love the pressure. I think it's something that a lot of chefs complain about, but if you don't have that pressure in your life, it's a bit boring. You feed off it. If you look in the kitchen, if you've had a quiet night, you'll see all the chefs with low energy. No one can be bothered to do anything, but if you've been absolutely slammed that night, everyone at the end has smiles on the faces, drinks, let's go out. I really think chefs love the pressure.

And is that also about maybe having a sense of achievement and satisfaction? That's a huge challenge to be really slammed and it's all busy, but you made it happen and you fed people and people are happy.

Then it really builds team morale. You've had a busy night, everyone's worked together and you come out the other end and you realize how much you've learned from that busy night. It almost becomes an addiction, having those busy nights.

Its a fulfilling job if you enjoy it. Youve got your social aspect, you're feeding people and when you see a full restaurant of people smiling because they've enjoyed the food you've cooked. Again its a bit of a rush that can be hard to fill in other places.

I've just finished watching the second season of The Bear about a chef in Chicago. Do you know that TV show?

It's on my list to watch.

It's amazing. Apparently the actor did do cooking classes, so he's got real burns and cuts and things. But it really shows that pressure and that pressured situation and how I guess it, if anyone's not quite right in their head, it can become very fractured. I guess as a leader, you would have to make sure that your whole team was on board with the upness of that experience. You are saying, it's a great experience to be really slammed ad have that pressure. Do you have to be aware of everyone else in the kitchen as well?

You do. If there's one thing that I feel I'm good at, it is bringing a positive energy to the kitchen. I think it's very easy for some chefs to get caught up with the negative. And at the end of the day, if someone's coming to work for you and they're coming into that kitchen 10, 12 hours a day, and they've given their everything, but they do something wrong, you can't be mad at that person. That really hurts morale in the kitchen. I think me having a positive mindset and me not being fazed or getting really angry by stuff, then it passes down.If people become scared to make a mistake, then they perhaps won't try as hard because they're scared of that mistake. We all make mistakes. I make mistakes. It happens. But I think a positive mindset and really having fun in the kitchen helps a lot.

That sounds right. And where did it all start for you? I read in your bio that you started at 15.

I was raised by a single mother who was working as a nurse, working night shifts. I took on the role of occasionally cooking food for me, my mum and my sister, at probably 12, 13. It just used to be a jar of curry sauce, cooking the chicken, putting the sauce in, and cooking rice. That led my mind to think, oh, what if I put this in? What if I put that in? And then I just fell in love with cooking from that point.

I thought I was going to play rugby professionally early on, and then had a bad accident with my leg. I broke my leg, dislocated my ankle, and shattered my knee. That was early on. I was probably about 15, 16. But I was already working in pubs at that time to make some money. I was washing dishes, waiting tables, helping out in the kitchen. After I recovered from my injury, the only thing I had left was working in the pub. Then I just naturally transitioned into the kitchen. It seemed to be the place where I was the most comfortable. And I worked my way up from there.

Did you have any mentors or chefs that stand out?

No, I taught myself pretty much. I worked in a tapas restaurant in England. The owner was a great guy, but he wanted to sit at the bar and drink. I just had to watch what people did and learn and figure it out myself. I spent a few years figuring stuff out myself. Then I went to work in another pub where I was just a chef there for a few years. The head chef didn't really want to teach anyone anything. The head chef and the owner fell out, the head chef left, and then it was like, can you just do it until we find someone else? So I did.

So you taught yourself and you watched and you learned. Were you also then looking at YouTube and social media or books?

A lot of cookbooks. A lot of videos, a lot of cooking programs, A lot of again subconscious learning almost. To be honest, it's a regret of mine not going and working for somebody and getting the real training. If I could go back with my career, it's something I would do. But it's never held me back, which is good.

Well, you've obviously got a curiosity as well. And you want to do the best that you can and really find out about the food you're cooking and so on. Was it a culture shock coming to Australia?

I think the good thing about being a chef is, no matter where you go in the world, it's always quite a multicultural place to be. So I guess it wasn't a culture shock. The heat was a shock. Coming to Sydney in summer, working in a kitchen when it's 35 degrees and humid, that was a shock. But culture shock wise, not really. The cafes were hard to adjust to with the early mornings. But kitchens, no matter where you are in the world, are the same, which is good.

It sounds like you've had lots of different experiences and across these two countries. What would your advice be to someone who was thinking about becoming a chef?

Only do it if you really love it, otherwise you'll end up hating it. I think there's two kind of chefs and some chefs hate their job. You see the memes of a chef going to work, cooking all this fancy food, and then going home and eating beans on toast. I still love cooking at home.

What do you cook at home?

I cook all kinds of things at home. It depends who I'm cooking for. If I cook for myself, I try to eat healthy. I think my advice for anyone is you have to be a hundred percent about being a chef. Its not a job, it's a lifestyle. Its something that'll take your whole life away. It's going to affect your friends, your family. You're not going to see people that much. So you have to love it, or you'll end up hating it.

Can you still be surprised by food, by flavours or by dishes?

Yes. Especially transitioning into Middle Eastern Lebanese food. For instance, kibbeh nayyeh, which is a Lebanese lamb tartare. Again, watching YouTube videos, you see little old ladies with la big rolling pin and they are just slamming the meat and you make it into something that looks like bubble gum, like a paste. It is something that if you're not familiar with it, you're kind of like, is this going to be nice. They mix it with spices. And I tried it. It was really good. It's one of the best things I think I'd made flavour-wise.

And yours has 13 different herbs in it. Is that right?

It's a huge spice mixture. It's called kamouneh in Lebanon. A lot of different spices. It was something that I was amazed by with the flavour and the texture of blending raw meat into a paste.

And the charcoal chicken is so delicious. You obviously marinate that, do you? And then butterfly it?

We buy them in a Portuguese cut. They take the spine out, flatten them out, and then we brine it overnight. Brining obviously lowers the cooking time, breaks down some of the proteins, and it really retains all the moisture. And we stick a load of herbs and spices in there, and the flavour really penetrates through the meat. Then we put it on the sticksand they hang for 12 hours to almost air dry it in the cool room and then cook it over a couple of different charcoals.

It was so succulent and tasty and it was just such a great combination with the pickled veggies and the toum and the harissa. It was really delicious.

It has taken a lot of work, a lot of different brines, a lot of trial and error to really get that chicken right to where it is.

I spoke to a chef a couple of months ago. He's at a place in Richmond called Way Good. His name's Brad Cunningham. He had worked for Yotham Ottolenghi in London and he's doing Middle Eastern style flavours as well, but he actually mentioned Henrietta, so it's great to have been able to eat here today and so lovely to talk to you.

Henrietta, 75a Chapel Street, Windsor