It was such a pleasure to meet a fellow Francophile in Sally Hillman. Her new book, Celebrating Champagne: A Wine for All Seasons is about Champagne, of course, but it’s also about the things that sit around it: cooking, family, France and the pleasure of having people at your table. We talked about where her love of Champagne began, the growers she seeks out, and why she thinks we should stop saving the good bottle for “someday”.
Hi Sally, it’s lovely to meet you. I’ve had a look at your book. It’s beautiful. And it’s quite a tome, isn’t it?
Yes, there’s quite a lot in there.
Celebrating Champagne. Those two words go together, absolutely. But you want to get people to bring Champagne into more everyday aspects of their life.
I do. I think Champagne is such a great food wine that it really has a part in everyday life. People always see it as a celebratory drink, and it is, of course. It’s the first thing we always reach for when there’s something good to talk about or great news. But because of the high acidity in Champagne, it makes it a very good partner with all manner of foods. I think it’s a great combination with everyday food. It doesn’t have to be oysters or foie gras or caviar. It can be really lovely home cooking recipes, like I’ve put into the book.
You’ve got 40 recipes in there, and you really go through the seasons. How did you come up with those 40?
They’re the recipes that I raised my family on. My boys grew up with them. They’re just the ones that were my go-to recipes and part of my repertoire. Some are family heirlooms, and some are ones that I’ve created and fine-tuned to make my own.
They seem quite French influenced.
Very. Yes. That’s a good pickup.
Salade de chèvre chaud is one of my favourites, so I was particularly looking at that one. Where did the French influence come from for you?
I studied French at school and at university. When I was doing my HSC, which is what it was called back then, I did a lot of conversation work to assist with my exams. I just loved the language. I love the culture. Whenever I can, I like to keep speaking it. I’m very rusty. I was just there recently and it took a little bit too long for it all to click back in. But there’s something about the way the French live and the way they enjoy food, and prioritise the enjoyment of food and the socialisation around food as well. I think that’s what I love.
I was talking recently with my Year 11 students about the whole art of gastronomy. The gastronomic meal of the French has actually been put on UNESCO’s list of intangible cultural heritage to be protected. That idea of moving through the different courses and really enjoying the meal. You talk in your book about l’art de recevoir, that idea of having guests and taking the time. What does that mean for you?
It means paying attention and enjoying the detail: setting the beautiful table, planning the menu, going to the market to get the seasonal produce, and then spending a day in the kitchen cooking. There’s nothing better than when you cook and your love goes into that food. I know that sounds corny, but it does. I think that’s part of the lovely connection that comes in. When you’re sitting down with your good friends or your family and you’re enjoying something that you’ve made, there’s a lovely talking point, but there’s also a care factor. There’s an element of yourself that’s gone into preparing it, and I think that’s part of what I really like about all of that too.
Are you a self-taught cook at home?
Yes. I learned from my grandmother. My dad’s grandmother was a fabulous cook, and I used to spend a lot of time with her. We’d sit and make things, and while the cookies or whatever it was were baking, we’d play solitaire. She loved to cook, and my grandfather loved to garden. Both sets of grandparents were great influences on me. My father’s parents were lovely people who enjoyed the simple pleasures in life, and my mum’s parents were great entertainers. I think the combination of seeing all of that in my life as a young person really had a great influence on me.
You’ve just been in France. Do you have a favourite part of France?
No. It’s all favourite! Paris…I mean, everything in France is beautiful. Of course I love Champagne, I can’t say I don’t, but you can go to Paris and spend 48 hours and see so many things that you’ve never seen before. It’s such an immersive creative experience. And you could go for 48 days and still not see enough. It’s a beautiful culture.
Paris is such a beautiful city. I always tell people you’ve got to look up because there are always little things to see. Sometimes you might get a glimpse inside someone’s window and see people just living their lives. And there’s all that Haussmann architecture. It looks like it’s cut out of the same fabric. I’m really a southern France person. I lived for a year in the south of France, so I always love that part, but there is something about Paris, and I think it grows on you. The first time I went there I was 22 and it was a bit overwhelming, but every time I go back it seems to get better and better.
I think you get to know it more. You know the little corner that you like, the stores you want to go back to, the little restaurants or cafés that become your favourites. I think that’s what makes Paris special. But you do need to push yourself to go outside your bubble and see things that you wouldn’t normally see. It ties into your comment about looking up and seeing what’s really out there, because it’s amazing what you can find if you just look around a corner sometimes.
Do you have particular things you want to eat or try when you go back?
I always like to have a list of restaurants that I want to get to. Often it’s hard to get in, or you can’t get to all of them, but I think having that intention is a really good thing. You don’t just aimlessly eat. And sometimes it’s not good food when you work that way. It’s better to prioritise what you’re going to eat in a nice way and elevate your experience. Champagne bars are obviously always on the horizon. And I love to involve art and culture as well. It’s just so easy to do that in Paris, or anywhere really in France. In the south of France, you can go to Saint-Paul-de-Vence and have a beautiful experience there.
Saint-Paul-de-Vence has the amazing Fondation Maeght just up the road, with all those beautiful Giacometti sculptures. And the town itself is so beautiful just to wander through. My favourite place is Saint-Rémy-de-Provence, where Van Gogh spent some time in the asylum, and you can really see how that Provençal light influenced so many artists. It’s all beautiful, isn’t it?
It is. I spent a lot of time looking at the Impressionists when I was just there recently, in London and also in Paris. I find the way they paint incredible. One artist who particularly took my interest this time, I don’t know for what reason, was Seurat, where he paints with the dots. When you’re close to the painting it just looks like dots, but when you step back you think, how could he create that from a series of dots? The intelligence and the purpose that they put into those works of art is marvellous, and we have to remember to appreciate them.
Champagne today is obviously a marketing machine, but that’s equally balanced by the grower-producer Champagnes, and they’re my particular point of interest. They’re very specific to the place that they’re grown, and the makers are the people who grow the grapes, so they know how the grapes have been treated throughout the process. Therefore you get quite a clean and unique product to enjoy.
Sally Hillman, Celebrating Champagne
Going back to Champagne, is the myth true that it came about because of a happy accident?
No. That’s a very nice story. Dom Pérignon was actually trying to get rid of the bubbles in Champagne. That whole thing is a bit of folklore really, and I think a bit of a marketing story. “Come quickly, I’m tasting the stars” sounds like a lovely story, but no, that’s not where it started. It started a long, long time ago. The wines of Champagne were enjoyed by the kings of France for quite some time before they became really famous, and they were still wines initially too. It’s interesting how it then progressed. Champagne today is obviously a marketing machine, but that’s equally balanced by the grower-producer Champagnes, and they’re my particular point of interest. They’re very specific to the place that they’re grown, and the makers are the people who grow the grapes, so they know how the grapes have been treated throughout the process. Therefore you get quite a clean and unique product to enjoy. I find that you can really appreciate the taste of Champagne more from the grower producers than, say, the Grandes Marques, but each has their place.
How do you get to know those small producers?
Passion, and just trying and tasting. I was introduced to one accidentally, and from there it just opened a world to me. I’ve been down that rabbit hole for a long time. Once you start going down there it’s hard to come back out because it’s so enjoyable. It’s hard then to actually go back and drink a grande marque or a big-brand Champagne, for example, because the taste of the growers is very pure. They’re very well paired with food too because they’re very vinous, or wine-like.
Are those smaller producers subject to the same sorts of rules within Champagne?
They have to adhere to the standards of Champagne, which are the same for a grande marque as they are for a grower producer. What makes them an RM is the fact that they grow and sell their own product. They don’t buy grapes from other growers and make an alchemic blend year upon year. They actually take the grapes from that year and that vintage and work with them to create the wine.
When you taste them, do you compare one to another and look for different things, or do you just enjoy each one?
I just enjoy them. Obviously, through the seasons, I find a Blanc de Blancs will work very well in summer with beautiful seafood, and then a Blanc de Noirs will work more with winter types of food. But I think if you just take them for what they are and appreciate them, then it’s an endless path of enjoyment.
Recently people have been saying that people aren’t drinking as much, and certainly the next generation perhaps aren’t drinking as much. Is there still a market for Champagne? Are producers suffering at all from not being able to sell their wines?
No. There’s a worldwide market for Champagne. Volumes are a little bit lower, and they’re particularly lower for this vintage. I think there is a movement towards people drinking less, but better. And that’s very French anyway, when you think about it, where you enjoy one or two glasses with your meal rather than going crazy on a bottle or two. Champagne is always going to be enjoyed. If you love it, you love it. There’s really no other alternative. I know this sounds really awful, but people might say, “Would you like a Prosecco?” or “Would you like a Cava?” They’re great, but they’re not Champagne. That’s one thing people sometimes get a little confused about. They think that because it’s sparkling, it’s all called Champagne. It’s absolutely not. Champagne only comes from Champagne, France, and that’s due to the appellation. That’s something that I proudly remind people of. Sometimes you hear yourself saying it a lot, but it’s amazing how many people still think that a sparkling wine is Champagne, no matter where it’s from.
The difference between vintages is the effect of what they call terroir, that mysterious French word nobody knows how to really translate. You have the effect of the season on the grapes, so the soil, temperature, microclimate, topography of the vineyard. All those things come into play and combine, and that affects every vintage.
Sally Hillman, Celebrating Champagne
When you were over there, were you visiting some of those producers?
Yes.
When you go, what sort of questions are you asking them, or are you just soaking it all up?
I love to soak up what they have to say. Generally, they’ll take you through the production method and the facility, so their press and their bottling and then their cellars. Then you come to the end and you sit down and taste through what they have on offer. That’s always a lot of fun. Sitting with the man or woman who has produced the wines, you get such an intimate knowledge of how they see those grapes having transposed into the bottle and grown, and all those sorts of things. It’s always a lovely experience. You’re often hands-on with the person who owns that particular house, and that’s what makes it so interesting.
Once they make a vintage, do they have to store the Champagne for a while?
Yes, there are rules around that. There’s a minimum amount of time that a bottle of Champagne has to stay in the cellar before it can be released. There are rules that govern non-vintage and vintage, and most good producers will hold it much, much longer than the bare minimum. That’s something to note and be intrigued about because it also explains why Champagne is as expensive as it is. It spends a lot of time in the cellars before we actually get to taste it. This year they’ve done the harvest, or they’re continuing to harvest at the moment, and we won’t see those wines for sometimes up to five, six or seven years. So there’s a lot of holding time before it reaches the market and they can receive a return on their investment. It does explain a lot.
Can you taste the difference between vintages?
Yes, definitely. The difference between vintages is the effect of what they call terroir, that mysterious French word nobody knows how to really translate. You have the effect of the season on the grapes, so the soil, temperature, microclimate, topography of the vineyard. All those things come into play and combine, and that affects every vintage. Not everyone will make a vintage every year because sometimes it’s not really good and they decide not to. They’ll just make a non-vintage then, and that becomes the one that gets to market a lot quicker.
How did your love for Champagne become what it is now?
I take that back to my grandparents as well. My grandfather used to bring bottles of Moët & Chandon to family celebrations, and that was back in the ’70s. For me, that association became people being together, having a nice time, and Champagne was always there. Then I just loved Champagne. I have always loved Champagne. It wasn’t always Champagne, though, I must qualify that. My tastes have developed quite a lot. But it was always my go-to, and from there it just became my passion. It’s hard for people to conceptualise that. It’s just something I love a lot. I’ve really enjoyed writing the book and putting everything I know into a concise form where people who may not know a lot about Champagne can use it as a reference as well as a recipe book. So it’s a combination of a lot of things really.
Have you done any courses, or how have you found out as much as you know?
Self-taught. You can do the WSET. You can do all these wine courses and what have you. I just trust my palate, and I know what I like. Without sounding bombastic, I know I’ve got good taste. So I just follow that, trust what I like and go from there.
For people selecting Champagne here, we probably don’t have as much access to those small producers. If people wanted to try something other than the big names, where can they go?
Well, you can come to me. I have a website, and we don’t hold stock, but we can curate a selection of stock for people if they’re particularly interested. From time to time I do experiences where we’ll have a lunch or dinner and taste through a house or a style of Champagne, so they’re good places. Wine lists at good restaurants are good places too. If you see something different, I just say try it. Don’t just try the New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. Try the Sancerre from France. I think you always have to have a curious palate.
Are there rules about keeping Champagne in the fridge or getting it out a certain amount of time before you drink it?
The best thing to remember is not to keep it in the fridge. Put it in the fridge two or three hours before you want to drink it. I always say Champagne is best treated like a mushroom. Put it in the bottom of the coolest, darkest cupboard you can find and just leave it there until you actually want to enjoy it. If that becomes a 20-minute window before friends are knocking on the door for Friday night drinks, get a bucket of ice, put the bottle in and fill it up with some water from the tap. In 20 minutes your bottle will be at the perfect temperature. Never put it in the freezer. Storing it in the fridge just dries the cork out and therefore can potentially damage the wine.
And speaking of corks, there’s a certain way to open it. You turn the bottle, not the cork?
It’s quite a process. I’ve tried to explain it in the book. When opening a bottle of Champagne, there’s an element of safety that needs to be involved because that cork can come flying out of the bottle at 60 kilometres an hour. You’ve always got to make sure you keep the cage over the cork, and then you twist the bottle against the cork rather than trying to wrestle the cork out. It should ease out really nicely.
Do you always have Champagne on hand?
Always. Yes, always.
What’s next? What are you looking forward to over the next little while?
More travel, definitely, with a view to another book soon, maybe. Definitely more travel and more immersive experiences in France. I think people are prioritising travel a lot at the moment, and they might be sacrificing other things in life, but travel, from what I saw when I was there, is still very much a high priority for a lot of people. So I think helping people to find their way and find the good places to go.
I think people are looking for experiences too, rather than just going and ticking things off the list or buying something. It’s more, “Let’s go and do this together so we have that lovely memory.”
It would be nice to have someone take you by the hand and lead you through some beautiful Champagne.
That’s very doable. I organise bespoke tours for people. If they have a group of, say, five to six people, I’m happy to be the tour guide for that group, meet them in France and take it from there. That’s something I do. But I don’t sell a ticketed tour. I never sell anything as a generic ticket. I prefer to do things that are very unique and curated to the people who will be experiencing them. I think it’s a better way to do it. We can cater to all budgets and all lengths of time required. Obviously, if you’re going to go to France from Australia, you need to have a minimum amount of time that you want to be there, but other than that, it’s lovely to do things that people really want to experience.
Well, congratulations on the book. It is so beautiful. The colours and everything, the hardcover. It’s such a beautiful book to have out and to flick through. It’s a bit of a coffee-table book, a cookbook and a lifestyle book all together.
Thank you. It’s been really lovely to talk with you, Jo.